I think it has to depend on the circumstances. There are certainly situations

Oct 7, 2015
9:28:40am

Bob Vance

where it would seem obvious that leaving the church would be in connection with fighting against its principles, as opposed to more ambiguous, or perhaps less antagonistic circumstances.

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Bob Vance

Bio page: Bob Vance
Joined: Feb 13, 2006
Last login: Apr 15, 2024
Total posts: 51,252 (7,038 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

A black eye on BYU?

newbie

10/7/15 9:07am

Yes. I believe it's been discussed a few times on here in the past.

benny1982

10/7/15 9:10am

Or it could be a situation where, since we only ever hear one side of the

benny1982

10/7/15 9:12am

It is the policy. It's right there in the honor code

DapperDan

10/7/15 9:47am

it's not true, remember Luke Ashworth left the church and still stayed at BYU

JONBOY

10/7/15 9:10am

it is true, but exceptions can be made

cougarmanguy

10/7/15 9:14am

Doesn't hurt to be a starter on the football team

Saxa

10/7/15 10:32am

Ashworth made his change well before becoming a starter.

NewMexiCoug

10/7/15 9:03pm

RE: it's not true, remember Luke Ashworth left the church and still stayed at

foofcoug

10/7/15 9:14am

I'd be curious to know how the exceptions to endorsement process works

Mems

10/7/15 9:24am

Did he "disaffiliate" or just go less active? Maybe there is a difference there

blueaussie

10/7/15 9:18am

He became a born-again christian

10/7/15 10:09am

Yea I just kind of wondered if maybe it didn't become official til after he left

blueaussie

10/7/15 12:17pm

RE: He became a born-again christian

TaiJuan

10/7/15 12:24pm

Ao disadfiliation is having your name removed from the records of the church.

blueaussie

10/7/15 12:56pm

He joined another church. You can petition to stay.

gwalker

10/7/15 10:10am

I don't know if expel is the right word, but you are no longer in good standing

Baron

10/7/15 9:13am

That makes no sense

southernfriedcougar

10/7/15 9:19am

It's so ironic how often the HC HIGHLY incentivizes students to be dishonest.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 9:31am

I don't get the idea that BYU is violating someone's "religious liberty" by not

hansel

10/7/15 9:14am

They can go elsewhere. They don't have to go to BYU.

foofcoug

10/7/15 9:21am

Isn't it taught that they should be loving and welcoming to everyone?

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:30am

This is different. The symposium relates to religious freedoms. BYU's policy

Baron

10/7/15 9:22am

And that's not an unreasonable conclusion. The other side is that religous

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:27am

He's not talking about the principle of religious freedom generally. If he

hansel

10/7/15 9:27am

The policy isn't limiting their right to express or practice religious freedom

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 5:37am

And what if they still agree to abide by the honor code?

Ygirl

10/8/15 8:46am

"These aren't anti Mormons were talking about."

TaiJuan

10/8/15 8:52am

My thoughts exactly

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 7:50pm

But these are people already attending BYU and having that taken away for a

DoseOfReality

10/7/15 9:24am

No doubt there is more to the story, but I doubt the Trib searched too hard, b/c

Iman23

10/7/15 9:17am

I find that illogical, it is discrimination against LDS members. A Catholic at

DoseOfReality

10/7/15 9:21am

There is no equal protection argument here. You might not like how it looks, but

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:24am

There is much latitude afforded to religious schools, but it is not limitless.

DoseOfReality

10/7/15 9:29am

If you want to wade in here with some conclusions, I would like to see the cases

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:31am

Religious institutions can discriminate on a religious basis. It's fundamental.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:31am

Agree, but public opinion does matter to the reputation of the institution

zuxvon

10/7/15 11:30am

They charge different faiths different tuition rates, looks legal to me.

Mems

10/7/15 9:36am

You do realize that the equal protection guarantees in the Constitution

jbcoug

10/7/15 9:38am

it's not a legal issue

cougarmanguy

10/7/15 9:24am

I think it has to depend on the circumstances. There are certainly situations

Bob Vance

10/7/15 9:28am

But the church knew that going in with the Catholic.

Coach's Dad

10/7/15 9:54am

Here's an old thread on the same issue.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:22am

Well, there is no question that their tuition should have to go up

Bob Vance

10/7/15 9:26am

Expelling a student for sedition is very different than for religious reasons.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 9:35am

Sedition is the only way to fight against the school?

Bob Vance

10/7/15 9:40am

So...you agree with me? Your tone says you don't, your words say you do.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 9:44am

Funny, I misunderstood the tone of your comment. Looks like same page.

Bob Vance

10/7/15 10:48am

I think I tried to agree and add to your comment in 80 characters. Not easy.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 11:20am

Definitely depends on the circumstances - that's why the rule should focus on

jayriggity

10/7/15 9:53am

I completely agree. And don't see anything wrong with raising tuition for anyone

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:19am

BYU has the right to do it. But it's a dumb policy.

Jeremy

10/7/15 9:33am

I think this is probably the right answer. Faith crises aren't easy for anyone

Iman23

10/7/15 9:36am

From the church's view, wouldn't they want to keep students who are questioning

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:27am

Questioning faith is not usually the same as removing a name from the records.

TaiJuan

10/8/15 9:45am

Also, I don't claim to be LDS anymore but BYU is a great school I considered

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:28am

What if someone comes in as a non-member, joins the Church

argla

10/7/15 9:33am

If they voluntarily disaffiliate, they lose honor code standing.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:36am

True but I think the point is, it shouldn't be grounds for loss of standing

Iman23

10/7/15 9:37am

I don't know that I fully agree

cougarmanguy

10/7/15 9:55am

It looks bad. Put yourself on the outside looking in. It makes it seem that BYU

pink22

10/7/15 9:44am

I think your last sentence outlines what I think as well.

Turnpike Lane

10/7/15 9:56am

How do you determine whether they are doing that or going to do that though?

Coach's Dad

10/7/15 9:58am

they still have to receive an ecclesiastical endorsement

10/7/15 10:18am

The same way it's done now

pink22

10/7/15 10:31am

My policy thoughts, if I were in charge...

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:56am

The problem is that anyone who takes an affirmative step to remove their name

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:59am

I agree. It is a practical matter as well. Otherwise everything is shades of

AF Cougar

10/7/15 10:16am

As long as students get fair chance to stay I would be fine with it. I don't

Baron

10/7/15 10:02am

Basically, the student moves to being under a microscope. I can't imagine it's

TaiJuan

10/7/15 10:05am

I think the difference is automatic expulsion with a chance to be exempt versus

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 5:43am

Why does the disassociated kid have different "expressive" restrictions than

jayriggity

10/7/15 10:06am

You are demonstrating why the policy works as it currently does.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 10:09am

I guess I don't get it. How?

jayriggity

10/7/15 10:19am

Should John Dehlin be allowed to remain at BYU if he were a student at the time

TaiJuan

10/7/15 10:24am

Maybe? IDK. I'm just exploring the ideas. Do you think that a catholic with exac

jayriggity

10/7/15 11:01am

I don't think the issue is discussing it with roomates in a private setting

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 5:49am

Not sure why people think it is a dumb policy...there is a difference of

Fdnman

10/7/15 10:06am

It's an awful big decision to a believing member of the Church. I've been

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 10:17am

I knew a few who left the church and weren't kicked out. And some that were. My

rcbyufan

10/7/15 10:14am

Very much true. And probably a dumb rule. Should be changed.

Real Men Wear Blue

10/7/15 10:59am

Well, if anyone would know about discriminatory policies at a university

BeardedSpock

10/7/15 1:00pm

It's not just a matter of membership. It's about breaking covenants.

panguitch

10/8/15 12:23pm

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