It's not really about "whining", it's about inadequate policy in a system that

Feb 15, 2017
7:24:01pm

shakinbaker All-American

produces many fewer qualified teachers than are required.

I know Traci and she isn't a whiner. I think the point of bringing her into the story is to put a face on the problem.

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shakinbaker

New username: Junior Deputy
Bio page: shakinbaker
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
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Messages

Author

Time

Apparently 120K in total compensation for a teacher is considered "dismal pay"

viper

2/15/17 6:53pm

Head janitors at elementary schools get 80k

OU Cougar

2/15/17 6:55pm

Our custodian at our school in Utah makes $43,000 after 20 years. You are

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:25pm

Charter schools must be different

OU Cougar

2/15/17 9:22pm

Ummm..can you show me where I can apply for this?

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:29pm

Management position, years of experience, and kids puke-

RedlandsCoug

2/15/17 7:39pm

Don't think that is accurate

fattycoug

2/15/17 9:08pm

Holy crap. Is that right? Insane if true.

Sugarhood

2/15/17 6:58pm

And not disputing her value at all, but why would she need a second job if that is her pay?

Sugarhood

2/15/17 7:01pm

After 28 years in her field and an advanced degree, her salary is ~77k.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:03pm

Pretty sure she knew the pay scale going in

tjngirlz

2/15/17 7:09pm

That is exactly the problem. Teachers know the pay scale going in

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:12pm

It's not really about "whining", it's about inadequate policy in a system that

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:24pm

Great point. I didn't factor in the benefits part either. That makes a lot more sense now. Still,

Sugarhood

2/15/17 7:12pm

Its technically 65k plus some overtime to get to ~77k.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:18pm

Also, she gets a couple months off each year, which is a huge perk. And

Baron

2/15/17 7:42pm

About $40K of it is defined as "benefits", so that's a salary of about $80K

El Jefe

2/15/17 7:04pm

for 8.5 months.

LiveCoug

2/15/17 7:08pm

Hahaha

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:09pm

Sorry, 8.25 months.

LiveCoug

2/15/17 7:10pm

As soon as it's $100k for 8.25 months, i'll teach math.

Bert609

2/15/17 7:53pm

Must be nice.

endy

2/15/17 7:17pm

Good news! There's a teacher shortage so I'm sure you could land a job.

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:20pm

Prorated, that is $100K if she worked a full year.

Left Shark Coug

2/15/17 7:19pm

A new grad with a Masters makes 34k in her district.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:22pm

I saw a job listing maybe two years ago in Phoenix for a new graduate

Icecat

2/15/17 7:53pm

You cannot discount the benefits. It still counts as pay. There is a reason

Spine

2/16/17 5:46pm

I count anything that shows up on a W-2 as income. Not there,

soupie

2/16/17 6:04pm

So a pension does not count? Way more expensive than a 401k match.

Spine

2/16/17 6:09pm

If you knew the rules of the pension you'd be surprised. Most will never collect

bluebloodedcoug

2/16/17 7:38pm

My mom woks for a Utah school district and retiring this year. My FIL has

Spine

2/17/17 10:05am

Cherry picking facts and misrepresenting them

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:08pm

so after 28 years of experience and an advanced degree, she earns what a 4th year accountant makes and less than a 1st

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:09pm

I would happily pay $100-$200 more in taxes a year if I knew it would go

Nakedbootleg

2/15/17 7:19pm

I agree - Utah total pay to administration is out of control. I'd certainly support higher taxes but would expect that

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:47pm

As soon as she can bill her time @$500 an hour to a paying client!

Pasadena

2/15/17 7:35pm

she could if she went into a different field. that's the problem.... our best minds are going elsewhere because taking

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:47pm

I see this ALL the time. My master's degree is full of teachers getting out

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:55pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 8:52pm

Here's what attorneys make at Cravath - 1st years are north of $180k.

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:03pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 9:07pm

you seem to think that talented people don't know how to get on an airplane. We're talking about hiring and retaining

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:11pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 9:19pm

Most attorneys have about a 0% chance of getting hired by Cravath,

califcougar

2/15/17 9:19pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 9:26pm

I'm comparing options - not sure why you guys want to nitpick this. A kid starts college... they have to decide on

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:27pm

It shouldn't be in their calculus, because being a lawyer at Cravath

califcougar

2/15/17 9:46pm

Makes for a weird dynamic. You have teachers asking for more money, but to your

Pasadena

2/15/17 9:46pm

<< Deleted >>

jensen46

2/16/17 6:30am

Utah big firm numbers are probably closer to 130k and to be

Baron

2/15/17 10:41pm

And a teacher starts around $30k.

soupie

2/15/17 10:43pm

So what is your point?

Baron

2/15/17 10:49pm

Why would anyone with the chops to be an attorney choose teaching today? Obviously there are some reason... but

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 11:01pm

If my spouse and I worked and both taught in say Wyoming, I would

Baron

2/16/17 6:52am

Yes, but then you'd have to live in Wyo. But seriously, someone in my grad school cohort went to

soupie

2/16/17 9:20am

If there are shortages or issues with your teachers in the area, I have no

Baron

2/16/17 10:53am

What city are you in?

soupie

2/16/17 10:56am

I'm in the midwest

Baron

2/16/17 11:58am

My favorite state!

WhyKnot

2/17/17 2:05am

I would love to get that pay and live in Wyoming!! NO STATE TAXES

Cosmo4life

2/16/17 12:30pm

Meanwhile our Wyoming legislature continues

jxncoog

2/16/17 2:07pm

Too bad this example features a Non Teacher

Tsisquan

2/16/17 10:31pm

But most are on the same pay scale despite the much higher educational requirement-- are in Utah, anyway.

soupie

2/17/17 9:41am

There's waaaay too much wasted money in Utah's public school system. Money that should be going to teachers

Coug Dude

2/17/17 3:05pm

Couple things:

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:10pm

STEM need to be paid more. PE can be taught by interns.

v1k0u6

2/15/17 7:12pm

There are many subjects where the pay is enough, combined with the lifestyle, to

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:16pm

My wifes isnt accuratr.she is a teacher, it has been before though

CarolinaCoug

2/15/17 7:20pm

After nearly 30 years, she makes $65k teaching. The other $10k salary is janitor

dtownCoug

2/15/17 8:31pm

I was on the school board-- listen to this

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:11pm

this has to stop... I'm all for paying teachers more.... I'm arguably the biggest advocate for higher teacher pay on

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:14pm

In Utah?

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:17pm

Nope Idaho

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:22pm

No offense but I think your numbers are off.

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:26pm

Yeah this guy is throwing out a lot of impossible numbers. Not sure what the

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:27pm

One was a public charter school

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:35pm

If you run a charter you can pay yourself whatever you want. That is one of the

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:52pm

That is not true.

Baron

2/15/17 7:45pm

No. Those rerirement nu.bers dont jobe for utah

CarolinaCoug

2/15/17 7:23pm

She goes to church in the same building as me

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:43pm

This is messed up. And Teachers are still undercompensated

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:19pm

In Utah you have to have worked 30 years to retire. This scenario is impossible.

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:22pm

It doesn't work in Idaho either.

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:27pm

35 years now and you only get (1.5x number of years)%

bluebloodedcoug

2/15/17 7:46pm

This is true for anyone that was hired after 2011.

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:50pm

Witnessing the birth of an alternative fact is always such a beautiful occasion.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:30pm

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

2/15/17 8:24pm

Sounds like you didn't do your job

Sumguy

2/15/17 10:14pm

As a note: principals = admin. admin are not teachers. 🍎🍊

HammerTheHive

2/16/17 10:17am

Not these ridiculous points of "data" again.

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:18pm

She is working two jobs. One as a teacher, one as a janitor both show up on

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:20pm

Thus. Its the combination of TWO jobs..

CarolinaCoug

2/15/17 7:26pm

It is not though

viper

2/15/17 7:32pm

Every time someone finds the numbers on that site we hear this.

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:20pm

Oooh, can i play irrelevant single data point too? Here is a ft teacher making

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:21pm

It was KSL that choose this person to highlight as getting a "dismal pay"

viper

2/15/17 7:31pm

Even if it was all cash (it isnt)- that's low relative to other jobs w/masters

RedlandsCoug

2/15/17 7:44pm

And ... it's two jobs for the district combining for that salary

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:54pm

Scumbag unions

Tsisquan

2/15/17 7:46pm

No one puts a gun to my head for my profession, no one does for theirs.

BlackBart

2/15/17 7:50pm

Exactly. Hence 50% turnover in the first 5 years and why your kids are always

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:59pm

If parents are unhappy, they should do something about it.

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:15pm

Hence the article on KSL and the discussion here. Or is that whining?

StalwartBraveTrue

2/17/17 12:22am

The turnover is related more to teachers deciding to be stay at home moms.

viper

2/17/17 12:04pm

The best research out there shows it IS related to pay, partially. Consider that

runnincoug

2/17/17 3:24pm

I haven't seen that, where did you see that research?

viper

2/17/17 7:10pm

here's just one article, published in the top educational research journal

runnincoug

2/17/17 10:46pm

That is NOT the number that shows up on her W-2, I guarantee it.

soupie

2/15/17 8:12pm

A year's worth of hours? It depends on the job. No way do they put in the same

Baron

2/15/17 8:16pm

Exactly. Teacher hours during 9 months and prorated wouldn't get close to mine.

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:20pm

I could work in the private sector and make much more but chose education setting

soupie

2/15/17 8:27pm

I'm simply saying there are tradeoffs that obviously many teachers enjoy

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:31pm

Not a bad idea. Call KSL. I think part of it is that teachers are

soupie

2/15/17 8:36pm

Everyone is being expected to do more and increase productivity. This isn't new.

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:41pm

LOL, that gift basket totally makes up for a 32k salary.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 8:51pm

It's a small example of the intrinsic rewards that teachers experience

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:55pm

This is the point. It's not about feeling bad for teachers, it's about fixing a

shakinbaker

2/15/17 8:58pm

When I move to Utah, I'm happy to be a part of organizing parents to solve

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:01pm

I'll be honest about to start ... by not disparaging their professionalism

runnincoug

2/15/17 9:09pm

Where am I disparaging teachers? I didn't cite anything you assert

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:12pm

your tone is one of "they are fine, their pay is good, they should be happy."

runnincoug

2/15/17 9:23pm

This statement is just not true:

Baron

2/15/17 9:52pm

We just aren't going to agree. The data shows teachers are severely underpaid

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:04pm

Please specify which comment is disrespectful.

Baron

2/15/17 10:13pm

This, for example

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:24pm

That is not many hours IMO especially when get two months off.

Baron

2/15/17 10:46pm

Sigh ... you really should not just report personal anecdotes ...

runnincoug

2/15/17 11:01pm

Also not working as many hours is not a comment on how hard someone is

Baron

2/15/17 10:55pm

It's my "tone". Nothing I've said is disparaging, but because I'm challenging

BlackBart

2/15/17 10:14pm

Nice that your school doesn't have a shortage. Again ... look at AVERAGES. Utah

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:28pm

Then pay teachers more. What is the issue? I am all for paying teachers more

Baron

2/15/17 10:52pm

I'm confused ... what are we arguing about?

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:56pm

not all teachers are underpaid. Some are. In those circumstances pay more.

Baron

2/15/17 11:00pm

Wait ... so are you saying teachers are paid appropriately or not?

runnincoug

2/15/17 11:03pm

BTW, U.S. teachers are among the hardest (longest) working in the world

runnincoug

2/15/17 11:07pm

Some teachers are paid appropriately and some are not whether

Baron

2/16/17 6:07am

Ha ha ha

Cougarrr

2/15/17 9:05pm

Ha ha ha. You obviously miss the point. Either the intrinsic or extrinsic

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:15pm

I'm not unhappy with the quality of machinist. I'm very unhappy with the quality of teachers. I want to pay

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:07pm

Assuming as you laid it out, I'd have no problem with my taxes increasing.

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:15pm

In Chicago rich people would give directly to the school to hire more and better

Baron

2/15/17 10:57pm

A 40 hr week? Yes. An attorney? No but their salary would be

soupie

2/15/17 8:22pm

I know a lot of teachers that say that, but I have not

Baron

2/15/17 8:29pm

I imagine prep time goes down but certainly not grading. Prep also

soupie

2/15/17 8:32pm

and how is this any different than emerging products/technologies that

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:37pm

And feel free to compare those salaries.

soupie

2/15/17 10:40pm

More freuenty than that even.. new texts, new reading program, new this

CarolinaCoug

2/16/17 1:13am

Allright you've said enough without being corrected so here goes.

CarolinaCoug

2/16/17 1:29am

Good for them. While I don't trust their counting of hours, I am

Baron

2/16/17 6:55am

Totally anomaly

shakarocks

2/15/17 8:34pm

Yeah, just weird that ksl used that teacher as a poster child for under paid

viper

2/15/17 10:48pm

Even more weird they didn't look into what all is included in the salary listed on the govt. site. I'd be willing

soupie

2/15/17 11:01pm

Why don't benefits count?

BYU'01

2/16/17 8:36pm

Your private huge co-pay argument is exactly what the health insurance in my district is. In fact, it's

soupie

2/17/17 9:45am

Yes, total compensation factored in every job decision I've made

BYU'01

2/17/17 6:14pm

Appalling. Half this board is blind to the whole problem and the other half

StalwartBraveTrue

2/17/17 12:28am

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