you seem to think that talented people don't know how to get on an airplane. We're talking about hiring and retaining

Feb 15, 2017
9:11:15pm

HarlemCoug Starter

talent. Talent looks at all their options. Brain drain is a real issue.

I know Utah teachers aren't paid enough because not enough competent people apply to fill vacancies. It really is that simple.

This message has been modified

Originally posted on Feb 15, 2017 at 9:11:15pm

Message modified by HarlemCoug on Feb 15, 2017 at 9:12:58pm

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HarlemCoug

Previous username: Big12
Bio page: HarlemCoug
Joined: Sep 8, 2014
Last login: Apr 20, 2024
Total posts: 32,120 (4,004 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Apparently 120K in total compensation for a teacher is considered "dismal pay"

viper

2/15/17 6:53pm

Head janitors at elementary schools get 80k

OU Cougar

2/15/17 6:55pm

Our custodian at our school in Utah makes $43,000 after 20 years. You are

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:25pm

Charter schools must be different

OU Cougar

2/15/17 9:22pm

Ummm..can you show me where I can apply for this?

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:29pm

Management position, years of experience, and kids puke-

RedlandsCoug

2/15/17 7:39pm

Don't think that is accurate

fattycoug

2/15/17 9:08pm

Holy crap. Is that right? Insane if true.

Sugarhood

2/15/17 6:58pm

And not disputing her value at all, but why would she need a second job if that is her pay?

Sugarhood

2/15/17 7:01pm

After 28 years in her field and an advanced degree, her salary is ~77k.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:03pm

Pretty sure she knew the pay scale going in

tjngirlz

2/15/17 7:09pm

That is exactly the problem. Teachers know the pay scale going in

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:12pm

It's not really about "whining", it's about inadequate policy in a system that

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:24pm

Great point. I didn't factor in the benefits part either. That makes a lot more sense now. Still,

Sugarhood

2/15/17 7:12pm

Its technically 65k plus some overtime to get to ~77k.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:18pm

Also, she gets a couple months off each year, which is a huge perk. And

Baron

2/15/17 7:42pm

About $40K of it is defined as "benefits", so that's a salary of about $80K

El Jefe

2/15/17 7:04pm

for 8.5 months.

LiveCoug

2/15/17 7:08pm

Hahaha

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:09pm

Sorry, 8.25 months.

LiveCoug

2/15/17 7:10pm

As soon as it's $100k for 8.25 months, i'll teach math.

Bert609

2/15/17 7:53pm

Must be nice.

endy

2/15/17 7:17pm

Good news! There's a teacher shortage so I'm sure you could land a job.

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:20pm

Prorated, that is $100K if she worked a full year.

Left Shark Coug

2/15/17 7:19pm

A new grad with a Masters makes 34k in her district.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:22pm

I saw a job listing maybe two years ago in Phoenix for a new graduate

Icecat

2/15/17 7:53pm

You cannot discount the benefits. It still counts as pay. There is a reason

Spine

2/16/17 5:46pm

I count anything that shows up on a W-2 as income. Not there,

soupie

2/16/17 6:04pm

So a pension does not count? Way more expensive than a 401k match.

Spine

2/16/17 6:09pm

If you knew the rules of the pension you'd be surprised. Most will never collect

bluebloodedcoug

2/16/17 7:38pm

My mom woks for a Utah school district and retiring this year. My FIL has

Spine

2/17/17 10:05am

Cherry picking facts and misrepresenting them

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:08pm

so after 28 years of experience and an advanced degree, she earns what a 4th year accountant makes and less than a 1st

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:09pm

I would happily pay $100-$200 more in taxes a year if I knew it would go

Nakedbootleg

2/15/17 7:19pm

I agree - Utah total pay to administration is out of control. I'd certainly support higher taxes but would expect that

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:47pm

As soon as she can bill her time @$500 an hour to a paying client!

Pasadena

2/15/17 7:35pm

she could if she went into a different field. that's the problem.... our best minds are going elsewhere because taking

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:47pm

I see this ALL the time. My master's degree is full of teachers getting out

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:55pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 8:52pm

Here's what attorneys make at Cravath - 1st years are north of $180k.

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:03pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 9:07pm

you seem to think that talented people don't know how to get on an airplane. We're talking about hiring and retaining

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:11pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 9:19pm

Most attorneys have about a 0% chance of getting hired by Cravath,

califcougar

2/15/17 9:19pm

<< Deleted >>

Buffalo

2/15/17 9:26pm

I'm comparing options - not sure why you guys want to nitpick this. A kid starts college... they have to decide on

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:27pm

It shouldn't be in their calculus, because being a lawyer at Cravath

califcougar

2/15/17 9:46pm

Makes for a weird dynamic. You have teachers asking for more money, but to your

Pasadena

2/15/17 9:46pm

<< Deleted >>

jensen46

2/16/17 6:30am

Utah big firm numbers are probably closer to 130k and to be

Baron

2/15/17 10:41pm

And a teacher starts around $30k.

soupie

2/15/17 10:43pm

So what is your point?

Baron

2/15/17 10:49pm

Why would anyone with the chops to be an attorney choose teaching today? Obviously there are some reason... but

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 11:01pm

If my spouse and I worked and both taught in say Wyoming, I would

Baron

2/16/17 6:52am

Yes, but then you'd have to live in Wyo. But seriously, someone in my grad school cohort went to

soupie

2/16/17 9:20am

If there are shortages or issues with your teachers in the area, I have no

Baron

2/16/17 10:53am

What city are you in?

soupie

2/16/17 10:56am

I'm in the midwest

Baron

2/16/17 11:58am

My favorite state!

WhyKnot

2/17/17 2:05am

I would love to get that pay and live in Wyoming!! NO STATE TAXES

Cosmo4life

2/16/17 12:30pm

Meanwhile our Wyoming legislature continues

jxncoog

2/16/17 2:07pm

Too bad this example features a Non Teacher

Tsisquan

2/16/17 10:31pm

But most are on the same pay scale despite the much higher educational requirement-- are in Utah, anyway.

soupie

2/17/17 9:41am

There's waaaay too much wasted money in Utah's public school system. Money that should be going to teachers

Coug Dude

2/17/17 3:05pm

Couple things:

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:10pm

STEM need to be paid more. PE can be taught by interns.

v1k0u6

2/15/17 7:12pm

There are many subjects where the pay is enough, combined with the lifestyle, to

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:16pm

My wifes isnt accuratr.she is a teacher, it has been before though

CarolinaCoug

2/15/17 7:20pm

After nearly 30 years, she makes $65k teaching. The other $10k salary is janitor

dtownCoug

2/15/17 8:31pm

I was on the school board-- listen to this

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:11pm

this has to stop... I'm all for paying teachers more.... I'm arguably the biggest advocate for higher teacher pay on

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 7:14pm

In Utah?

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:17pm

Nope Idaho

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:22pm

No offense but I think your numbers are off.

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:26pm

Yeah this guy is throwing out a lot of impossible numbers. Not sure what the

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:27pm

One was a public charter school

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:35pm

If you run a charter you can pay yourself whatever you want. That is one of the

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:52pm

That is not true.

Baron

2/15/17 7:45pm

No. Those rerirement nu.bers dont jobe for utah

CarolinaCoug

2/15/17 7:23pm

She goes to church in the same building as me

OU Cougar

2/15/17 7:43pm

This is messed up. And Teachers are still undercompensated

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:19pm

In Utah you have to have worked 30 years to retire. This scenario is impossible.

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:22pm

It doesn't work in Idaho either.

shakinbaker

2/15/17 7:27pm

35 years now and you only get (1.5x number of years)%

bluebloodedcoug

2/15/17 7:46pm

This is true for anyone that was hired after 2011.

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:50pm

Witnessing the birth of an alternative fact is always such a beautiful occasion.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 7:30pm

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

2/15/17 8:24pm

Sounds like you didn't do your job

Sumguy

2/15/17 10:14pm

As a note: principals = admin. admin are not teachers. 🍎🍊

HammerTheHive

2/16/17 10:17am

Not these ridiculous points of "data" again.

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:18pm

She is working two jobs. One as a teacher, one as a janitor both show up on

93 cougar

2/15/17 7:20pm

Thus. Its the combination of TWO jobs..

CarolinaCoug

2/15/17 7:26pm

It is not though

viper

2/15/17 7:32pm

Every time someone finds the numbers on that site we hear this.

Cougarrr

2/15/17 7:20pm

Oooh, can i play irrelevant single data point too? Here is a ft teacher making

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:21pm

It was KSL that choose this person to highlight as getting a "dismal pay"

viper

2/15/17 7:31pm

Even if it was all cash (it isnt)- that's low relative to other jobs w/masters

RedlandsCoug

2/15/17 7:44pm

And ... it's two jobs for the district combining for that salary

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:54pm

Scumbag unions

Tsisquan

2/15/17 7:46pm

No one puts a gun to my head for my profession, no one does for theirs.

BlackBart

2/15/17 7:50pm

Exactly. Hence 50% turnover in the first 5 years and why your kids are always

runnincoug

2/15/17 7:59pm

If parents are unhappy, they should do something about it.

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:15pm

Hence the article on KSL and the discussion here. Or is that whining?

StalwartBraveTrue

2/17/17 12:22am

The turnover is related more to teachers deciding to be stay at home moms.

viper

2/17/17 12:04pm

The best research out there shows it IS related to pay, partially. Consider that

runnincoug

2/17/17 3:24pm

I haven't seen that, where did you see that research?

viper

2/17/17 7:10pm

here's just one article, published in the top educational research journal

runnincoug

2/17/17 10:46pm

That is NOT the number that shows up on her W-2, I guarantee it.

soupie

2/15/17 8:12pm

A year's worth of hours? It depends on the job. No way do they put in the same

Baron

2/15/17 8:16pm

Exactly. Teacher hours during 9 months and prorated wouldn't get close to mine.

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:20pm

I could work in the private sector and make much more but chose education setting

soupie

2/15/17 8:27pm

I'm simply saying there are tradeoffs that obviously many teachers enjoy

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:31pm

Not a bad idea. Call KSL. I think part of it is that teachers are

soupie

2/15/17 8:36pm

Everyone is being expected to do more and increase productivity. This isn't new.

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:41pm

LOL, that gift basket totally makes up for a 32k salary.

Nathanael Greene

2/15/17 8:51pm

It's a small example of the intrinsic rewards that teachers experience

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:55pm

This is the point. It's not about feeling bad for teachers, it's about fixing a

shakinbaker

2/15/17 8:58pm

When I move to Utah, I'm happy to be a part of organizing parents to solve

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:01pm

I'll be honest about to start ... by not disparaging their professionalism

runnincoug

2/15/17 9:09pm

Where am I disparaging teachers? I didn't cite anything you assert

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:12pm

your tone is one of "they are fine, their pay is good, they should be happy."

runnincoug

2/15/17 9:23pm

This statement is just not true:

Baron

2/15/17 9:52pm

We just aren't going to agree. The data shows teachers are severely underpaid

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:04pm

Please specify which comment is disrespectful.

Baron

2/15/17 10:13pm

This, for example

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:24pm

That is not many hours IMO especially when get two months off.

Baron

2/15/17 10:46pm

Sigh ... you really should not just report personal anecdotes ...

runnincoug

2/15/17 11:01pm

Also not working as many hours is not a comment on how hard someone is

Baron

2/15/17 10:55pm

It's my "tone". Nothing I've said is disparaging, but because I'm challenging

BlackBart

2/15/17 10:14pm

Nice that your school doesn't have a shortage. Again ... look at AVERAGES. Utah

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:28pm

Then pay teachers more. What is the issue? I am all for paying teachers more

Baron

2/15/17 10:52pm

I'm confused ... what are we arguing about?

runnincoug

2/15/17 10:56pm

not all teachers are underpaid. Some are. In those circumstances pay more.

Baron

2/15/17 11:00pm

Wait ... so are you saying teachers are paid appropriately or not?

runnincoug

2/15/17 11:03pm

BTW, U.S. teachers are among the hardest (longest) working in the world

runnincoug

2/15/17 11:07pm

Some teachers are paid appropriately and some are not whether

Baron

2/16/17 6:07am

Ha ha ha

Cougarrr

2/15/17 9:05pm

Ha ha ha. You obviously miss the point. Either the intrinsic or extrinsic

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:15pm

I'm not unhappy with the quality of machinist. I'm very unhappy with the quality of teachers. I want to pay

HarlemCoug

2/15/17 9:07pm

Assuming as you laid it out, I'd have no problem with my taxes increasing.

BlackBart

2/15/17 9:15pm

In Chicago rich people would give directly to the school to hire more and better

Baron

2/15/17 10:57pm

A 40 hr week? Yes. An attorney? No but their salary would be

soupie

2/15/17 8:22pm

I know a lot of teachers that say that, but I have not

Baron

2/15/17 8:29pm

I imagine prep time goes down but certainly not grading. Prep also

soupie

2/15/17 8:32pm

and how is this any different than emerging products/technologies that

BlackBart

2/15/17 8:37pm

And feel free to compare those salaries.

soupie

2/15/17 10:40pm

More freuenty than that even.. new texts, new reading program, new this

CarolinaCoug

2/16/17 1:13am

Allright you've said enough without being corrected so here goes.

CarolinaCoug

2/16/17 1:29am

Good for them. While I don't trust their counting of hours, I am

Baron

2/16/17 6:55am

Totally anomaly

shakarocks

2/15/17 8:34pm

Yeah, just weird that ksl used that teacher as a poster child for under paid

viper

2/15/17 10:48pm

Even more weird they didn't look into what all is included in the salary listed on the govt. site. I'd be willing

soupie

2/15/17 11:01pm

Why don't benefits count?

BYU'01

2/16/17 8:36pm

Your private huge co-pay argument is exactly what the health insurance in my district is. In fact, it's

soupie

2/17/17 9:45am

Yes, total compensation factored in every job decision I've made

BYU'01

2/17/17 6:14pm

Appalling. Half this board is blind to the whole problem and the other half

StalwartBraveTrue

2/17/17 12:28am

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