Sure, but the gulags are also not unique

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May 21, 2019
9:07:23pm

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Sure, but the gulags are also not unique

At least not in type. Essentially they were slave labor, disposable masses worked to death. Pretty much every empire has done the same, even if not on the same scale.

Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, etc., there’s really nothing quite comparable in history (only thing that comes close in my mind is the killing fields of Cambodia).

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Last login: Apr 19, 2024
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Messages

Author

Time

Germany vs Japan post WWII symbolism?

Xenon

5/21/19 8:41pm

Because the Japanese are "foreign"

kccougar

5/21/19 8:54pm

Plus, the German atrocities were actually more spectacular, and evil.

chilango

5/21/19 9:22pm

The rape of Nanking is about as horrifying of treatment towards other humans as

che flaco

5/21/19 9:33pm

It was horrible, but Auschwitz was worse. As were Treblinka and the other

chilango

5/21/19 9:36pm

Japanese atrocities were more personal. German were more industrial.

5/21/19 10:16pm

Sure but it is also more similar to the kinds of warfare tyrants and conquerors have engaged in for millennia

5/22/19 9:33am

My opinion: because Germany is a European country and is part of the western

che flaco

5/21/19 8:54pm

There is something uniquely horrifying about Nazism

spinner

5/21/19 8:58pm

Agree with that, it is definitely uniquely horrifying and that is definitely

che flaco

5/21/19 9:02pm

Sure, but the gulags are also not unique

spinner

5/21/19 9:07pm

Fair enough

che flaco

5/21/19 9:10pm

As much as they were 'work' camps they were more grind em into dust

5/21/19 9:28pm

Plus the Nazis had more uniquely identifying symbols and institutions, whereas

Mike Honcho

5/21/19 9:34pm

Because as bad as the Japanese were, the Germans were worse. Probably the most

chilango

5/21/19 9:20pm

Wow, you need to listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History Podcast

5/21/19 9:27pm

No estimate of slaughter of civilians that I’ve ever seen puts Japan in the same

chilango

5/21/19 9:32pm

You are severely underestimating the sheer brutality of the Japanese in WW2.

5/21/19 9:37pm

No, I’m not. But many here severely underestimate the brutality of Germany under

chilango

5/21/19 9:39pm

The Japanese killed more people than the Nazis, in more personal and grousome

5/21/19 9:42pm

I think this article also provides a reason why we hear more about Hitler than

Mike Honcho

5/21/19 9:45pm

Interesting stat: 4% of US POWs in German custody died. 27% under Japanese

5/21/19 9:49pm

They definitely treated POWs worse than the Germans did. There’s no debate

chilango

5/21/19 9:52pm

The Japanese treated Western Allies’ POWs much worse than the Germans did

spinner

5/21/19 9:57pm

True, there was a big difference between Soviet POWs and Western ones. But even

chilango

5/21/19 10:03pm

Pretty much

spinner

5/21/19 10:07pm

An interesting tidbit, side note. The largest massacre of POW's on American soil

5/21/19 10:24pm

What an interesting, sad bit of history. I'd never heard of this incident.

spinner

5/22/19 6:42am

That's terrible.

HighHorse

5/22/19 9:21am

Look at the chart in this article, for perspective. The column titled “Civilian

chilango

5/21/19 9:49pm

Stop. They were both depraved and evil in their special ways. The Germans

5/21/19 9:53pm

Your own chart has 15-20 million Chinese dead compared to 6 million Poles.

5/21/19 10:00pm

You’re reading the wrong column. It’s 7.3-8.2 million Chinese civilians who were

chilango

5/21/19 10:06pm

So you’re not counting the 10M Chinese who were starved to death by the

5/21/19 10:09pm

Correct, also not counting the 10M Russians starved to death by the Germans, to

chilango

5/21/19 10:16pm

I get your point. I think you are more shocked by the depraved and calculated

5/21/19 10:21pm

Nope, what the Japanese did was every bit as premeditated, evil and large in

5/21/19 9:38pm

No, it wasn’t. Among other things, the Germans committed genocide on a planned,

chilango

5/21/19 9:40pm

Chilango, are you Japanese?

Mike Honcho

5/21/19 9:42pm

No. It just happens to be a topic on which I’m well informed. I lived in China,

chilango

5/21/19 9:52pm

You actually don’t seem that well informed.

5/21/19 9:56pm

Maybe that’s because you aren’t? Kind of like when evangelicals tell me I’m

chilango

5/21/19 9:59pm

Really strange analogy dude. Kinda weird.

5/21/19 10:01pm

You’re assuming others aren’t as well informed, which is probably not true

Mike Honcho

5/21/19 10:03pm

Being informed is besides the point, it’s weird to be so adamant that one

che flaco

5/21/19 10:16pm

Wow dude. Those are some troubling blinders.

5/21/19 9:43pm

I agree, lots of troubling blinders on this board.

chilango

5/21/19 9:55pm

<< Deleted >>

lightmann

5/21/19 10:55pm

The German people are a lot more repentant and regretful of their atrocities in

5/21/19 9:36pm

IIRC, Japanese war criminals weren’t even considered criminals in Japan after

Mike Honcho

5/21/19 9:41pm

I think this is accurate, in my experience.

chilango

5/21/19 9:41pm

Curious about that experience. How broad is it? My interactions with the

777

5/21/19 11:29pm

Not to American POWs. 17% died in German camps, almost 50% died in Japanese

CougarAndMerlin

5/21/19 11:48pm

Agree. OTOH, the Germans were genocidal, while the Japanese were not.

chilango

5/22/19 12:07am

<< Deleted >>

Dynasty1

5/22/19 7:03am

Reputationally, not in the war itself. And I said nothing about the Allies.

chilango

5/22/19 7:05am

They're the villains of every Hollywood movie. I think that 1933-1945 greatly

Dynasty1

5/22/19 7:29am

Which is why many people tend to go easier on them than they deserve. That and

chilango

5/22/19 7:42am

What about the Americans who fire bombed all those cities? Even Mcnamara

777

5/21/19 11:22pm

Interesting that way more Japanese were killed by fire bombing than nukes, but

CougarAndMerlin

5/21/19 11:45pm

Anyone that thinks the Japanese weren’t at least terrible as the Germans aren’t informed. I personally think the Japanes

sgriff

5/22/19 12:29am

The same reason the Nazis are considered *slightly* less evil than Mao,

valleus

5/22/19 4:18am

That's true

HighHorse

5/22/19 4:39am

Slightly less, or slightly more?

chilango

5/22/19 5:58am

Dude, just stop talking. You're apparently horribly misinformed on this issue

UberDeek

5/22/19 9:13am

The irony is so thick. But in this case, his post describes why more, not why

chilango

5/22/19 9:21am

Wow, you're so stuck on the genocide... You've discounted how many human lives

UberDeek

5/22/19 9:32am

Yeah, it’s so weird to get stuck on genocide, especially the industrial-scale

chilango

5/22/19 10:17am

Yeah, and a German Nazi helped saved 200,000 chinese from the Japanese during the rape of Nanking.

sgriff

5/22/19 10:37am

Yes, I’ve been there, several times. My company had offices in Nanjing, so I

chilango

5/22/19 10:49am

I see what you're saying. Fair enough.

sgriff

5/22/19 11:33am

Do you think that maybe your experience there has possibly clouded your

macaroni

5/22/19 12:22pm

It’s definitely informed it. More data and information are usually helpful and

chilango

5/22/19 2:40pm

Of course it’s generally good. It can also cloud your analysis negatively.

macaroni

5/22/19 3:03pm

The POW discussion is clear, the Japanese were much worse than the Germans, at

chilango

5/22/19 4:13pm

I really don't see the uniqueness....

Xenon

5/22/19 5:25pm

You’re not Chinese though. You clearly have an affinity for Asian culture. To

macaroni

5/22/19 6:58pm

And Minnie Vautrin and Gingling Women's College (a Christian College at the

5/22/19 4:46pm

At one level, comparing atrocities is a farce, and

valleus

5/22/19 4:03pm

They actually weren't though. The targeting of ethnic groups goes back a long

Dynasty1

5/22/19 4:08pm

I disagree ... the only unique element of Nazi Evil was EFFICIENCY...

Xenon

5/22/19 5:12pm

I agree with both of you, ethnic killing is old as recorded history. But the

valleus

5/22/19 6:26pm

I don’t see why that matters. Really, why does that matter? Wouldn’t you be more

macaroni

5/22/19 6:50pm

You can argue if the difference matters in a moral sense or not. Robert Conquest

valleus

5/22/19 7:08pm

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