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Oct 26, 2014
3:25:20pm
RE: Oh please. You guys are ridiculous. The Yewts offense sucked.
So this thread has gone in so many directions that its difficult to get what he wants other than to say that no matter what you say BYU is as good as or better than Utah. He/She (that's not an attempted insult I'm just not sure despite the name) is entitled to that opinion. I disagree. I am a lifelong Utah fan but have a begrudging respect for BYU.
I think the programs are on similar levels at this point, but if the current state continues unchanged I think Utah will likely continue to grow with the resources, structure, and prestige their conference affiliation brings them while BYU despite having ample resources will flounder without the structure of a conference. I think the programs have been at similar levels for the past decade and separation has begun. (more on why I believe this later)

This is CougarBoard so I'll start with BYU. They have deeper pockets and resources than many schools in a similar situation. They have both strong home booster support and national appeal both from alumni and church affiliation. That will always make them appealing in terms of broadcast and visibility. They will always recruit well because of the draw for church members. Lavell's coaching tree is very fruitful, unfortunately and I don't know why, but BYU hasn't harvested that fruit well, but if they could tap into that legacy then they could have great coaching that appreciates the environments and unique demands of coaching BYU. I don't have strong opinion on Bronco. He seems like a fine coach whose team is having a bad year, but again I honestly don't follow closely enough to know. Perhaps a different coach and no injury to Taysom and you're 8-0 but it doesn't change the fundamental problem of independence. It was the right move in 2010, you can't have Utah and TCU jump ship and stay in the MWC. However I think everyone saw it as a short term bridge to an invite to a major conference, and for whatever reason that hasn't worked out yet and may never happen. That sucks and it means they BYU is stuck. The only way I think BYU moves out of where they are is by doing what they haven't done. Perfect season. Several of them. Within a short span. Against the competition it can mount. Utah's 2004 and 2008 schedules weren't that great, but they won. Every Game. they blew people out. They won close games. They stomped on their opponents when presented with the biggest stage possible. TCU did it as well. If I were the Big 12 conference (really the only viable option) I wouldn't call BYU until that happened. You might think that sucks. It does. BYU is a great school, with a great program and great fans, and deserves better. But life isn't fair. If/When you join a major conference you no longer need perfection you need to win your conference. I know this isn't technically true with the current format, but I think we all know the playoff will expand and eventually a P5 conference championship will be an automatic bid. Also, even if you are having a bad year or if you are not destined to win the conference your games matter. (see Utah's schedule for the next month) We aren't going to win them all. We might not win any, but they mean something on a national level. That's good for fans, players, coaches, and recruits. I know you all know this, just wanted to make sure. Not sure if Bronco is the only/main thing preventing the completion of the "Quest for Perfection" or not. Holmoe had better know the right answer to this question. Also if that's the case fire him quickly, find a great coach, and have a perfect season next year because you'll need to pencil in a loss up at RES in 2016 and in most years Chris and Tom can reach an accord on playing from here on out unless things change.

Here's why I think that is true.

As promised: why Utah has been "on the same level" as BYU for a decade is growing and will continue to outpace BYU unless things change.

Many are gonna take issue with "the same level" comment. Time gets away from you if you don't pay attention. In 2003 Coach Whittingham and the Utes shut the Cougars out for the first time in like a gazillion years. I know you guys are all about to tell me that Urban coached that team. He did, but Coach Whittingham coached the defense that shut BYU out. From my friends that played for Kyle I know that he had a running count going for years and a standing question that motivated his defense to that conclusion. He dreamed it. He wanted it. He and his players made it happen. It's why we love him. You have to give credit for a 3-0 win to the defense right? So head to head in the 21st century you have Utah wins in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2008, 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013. The OP argues repeatedly in this thread that wins and losses head to head don't mean anything (which I think is completely insane its the basis of competition and sport). An individual game does not a program make, but that's a potent trend. If you stretch memory back 20 years it gets worse. You add on Utah wins in: 1994, 1995, 1997 and 1999 in a 20 year span that's 13/20. We are at least 20 years removed from BYU being truly dominant in this series. Certainly in the 1990s BYU had a superior program but those Utah wins come in the context of a program that also beats Michigan at home, more wins against BCS opponents than any other non-BCS school during that time (including BYU). It comes in the context of recruiting and developing NFL caliber talent. For all the crap we all gave/give Alex Smith he is still playing in the NFL while BYU quarterbacks from that era are riding the pine or behind bars. That record came in the context of 2 perfect seasons. At the end of which we won on the biggest stage available to us. That record compiled in the context of 2 head coaching changes. That came in the context of having our starting quarterback not finish the season since 2008. Those Utah wins came in the context of a revolving door at OC. Those BYU losses came in the context of loosing coaching talent because others saw the coaching talent available and they had other opportunities (Gary Anderson Head Coach of Wisconsin, Norm Chow Head Coach Hawaii spring immediately to mind) not because we fired them. Even the ones we let go like Brian Johnson who struggled as an improperly promoted youngest OC in D1 ball is now QB coach at.... Misssissippi State coaching the Heisman front runner.

I ran all that off because those things are what a program actually is.
Again Before 2003 the story is completely different, but in the past decade:

Wins on the field - BYU has more in the past decade, but Utah's matter more they came at the right time and in the right order (consecutively in a single season)

Wins against your best competition - Utah clearly has more marquee wins. We have Fiesta Bowl and Sugar Bowl trophies in the case not just Maaco Car Care Las Vegas Bowl (I guess we've got one of those too). We have beaten 2 teams ranked in the top 10 in just the past calendar year. BYU beat Oklahoma at Jerry's World in an amazing game. I'm really lacking for other marquee wins from BYU in the past decade. If you want to count Texas we get to count Michigan. That's 2 wins for each that really cancel each other out. Looking at when we shared opponents. When all three teams were in the same conference BYU just couldn't get over the hump with TCU when it counted. They beat us plenty, but when it really counted we got over BYU did not. In 2008 TCU ended "The Quest for Perfection" in Provo and it moved north.

Talent on the field - BYU may win lots of recruiting battles against the U. They may have higher ranked classes. BYU is ALWAYS landing some great quarterback every other team wants. I seriously hear that every year. Is there a thread on this board called "best quarterback recruit ever!" that's like 10,000 names long of guys that BYU "got"? The U may not get guys the high school scouts love, but we polish us up some roughed diamonds and present them shiny and awesome to the world. (I googled and found this fancy infographic http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/05/colleges-nfl-players-infographic_n_5772698.html )

Coaching - Our coach could take your coach any day of the week and twice on Sundays. We all know that. It's why both teams tried to hire him in 2004. A lot of folks say Urban "built" the Utah program. That's insane. Ron MacBride started with garbage and built a winning program. Urban highlighted what it could do. 2004 was a tribute to both coaches. Urban won all those games with Mac's guys. How many coaches get a few year's grace until they get "their guys" when they bring a totally different system like Urban did? The constant in Utah Football for 20 years of course is Kyle. He identifies and builds coaching talent way way way way way way better than Bronco. Bronco has had to relinquish and resume coaching the defense how many times? Our last DC got poached, beat BYU as a Utah State HC and now is the HC at Wisconsin. Our struggles at OC have been epic, but that's partly because they get poached too. Bronco has hired Robert Anae twice!

Handling adversity - It sucks that Taysom got hurt. I know. We haven't started and ended with the same QB since 2008. Injuries suck. Look at who was playing what position last night in our victory against SC. Everyone has injuries everywhere all the time. Football is a violent sport. Depth in terms of athletic ability, and perhaps more importantly resolve are a big part of a program. Yeah, Utah has gone on loosing binges. But part of our losses over the past 3 years has been that we are legitimately outclassed by our opponents in terms of depth and talent. The P12 is full of good football teams. If you watch the games a lot of teams we play are bigger, faster, and stronger than us. But as last night proved effort and attitude count. I don't doubt that on paper USC should blow us out. But they didin't. We have consistently lost in heart breaking fashion over the past few years so so so many close games that we didn't couldn't close out, but our guys keep coming, and once in awhile they put it all together. This year our team responded to an embarrassing loss with amazing resolve. BYU however has gone into a tailspin multiple years in response to injury and embarassing losses. And does so against opponents they should far outclass in terms of depth and talent. 2004 BYU had terrible losses to teams they could have beaten. Ditto to 2010. This year you are all painfully aware that BYU has better athletes than USU and Nevada, but the team is not responding well to adversity. You can put some of that on a coach, but the players are on the field not Bronco.

These things: wins, wins at the right time and place, wins when the lights are brightest and the stage is biggest, coaching, and what the players on the team actually do on the field especially when things are not going well are what a football program is. Tradition, History, and Fan Loyalty are all nice but they don't win a single game. They don't score a point. BYU has plenty more of these three things than Utah. But They DO NOT MATTER on the field. They are NOT a football program. So just as 4 weeks means nothing what happened during 20 years in the 1970s-1990s that ended 20 years ago means nothing as well. The "glory days" mean nothing to guys on the field. No football team coming to Provo thinks "these guys won a national championship in 1984 so we better watch out". Within the next few years the guys on the field will have birthdays starting with the digit 2. Your program's history is great and far superior to Utah's, but not your program's present is probably even but arguably worse than ours.

Like I said at the beginning: In my opinion BYU and Utah have been on the same level for about a decade. BYU had better athletes and coaching initially, but as the years have rolled on we built better facilities and developed better coaching that in turn put out a better team that plays above measurable potential. That in turn got us the lever of major conference affiliation. Unless things seriously change we will outclass BYU in talent on the field primarily because we can point to major conference affiliation with games EVERY YEAR in Los Angeles. That's whay I called P12 affiliation a lever: leverage magnifies the force applied to it. Better coaching, better talent, and a better environment/exposure/meaningful games will result in real separation.

You can spout whatever argument you want about 10 and 11 win seasons, fan loyalty, history, your perceptions about the true meaning or quality of our past or current wins, but the facts and history are what they are. So don't worry about our offense. That's the great thing about having a resilient team that is well coached as part of a good football program. We'll just find a new way to beat you. Ask UCLA, Oregon State, and USC. They thought they knew who we were too. Go Utes.

One last note if anyone has actually made it through this thing. I legitimately hope BYU lands a spot. BYU are our rivals because you are a fine institution of higher learning with excellent academic and athletic programs. If BYU athletics becomes a true "little brother" then we'll be stuck with Colorado and that would suck. However part of me thinks not playing BYU this year was really good for us. NOT because I worry about a loss, but because playing that game early seamed to mess with our team emotionally in a detrimental way. It's actually a no-win for us. A loss doesn't really kill us because of the conference, but the emotion , even of a win throws us off.
Maximumkungfu
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Maximumkungfu
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