think the PAC-12 is "weak" at all. I think the conference has certainly suffered a lack of respect, nationally- due to the fact that we haven't made the playoffs 3/5 times. (In my opinion, that's because there's a lot of parity. EVERY south team has won the division at least once, in the last 8 years. How many divisions can say that? The reason we aren't in the playoff every year is because there isn't one dominant team. We beat the crap out of each other, and the conference champ always has at least two losses.)

I also think our officiating scandals, and TV network, and the amount of money we pay our executives is embarrassing. But no. I don't think the PAC itself is weak.

My post only said that I think BYU's football program is better than several of the few weak teams in the PAC.

• Oregon State- no question
• Colorado- probably, most of the past 10 years.
• Cal- maybe
• Arizona- BYU has beaten them recently.

Clearly, there are teams that are also better:

• Washington
• Stanford
• Oregon
• USC (not counting the last two years)
• Washington State (under Leach)
• Utah- 8 wins in a row are not a fluke, although the games have been close.

(I have questions about ASU and UCLA, right now.)

I'm not a typical Utah fan, since I also went to BYU, and cheer for them 11 games a year. BUT I believe that BYU should be in the PAC-12. They're a quality program, with a rich history, and have managed to do pretty well with independence- most years. They'd be a good fit, and we wouldn't have to have a pretend rivalry with Colorado. (Maybe Colo State could get the invite, to make the PAC 14 teams- and give Colorado a rival.) I recognize that BYU would benefit and improve their team, and that would inevitably end the streak sometime. But, if Utah is a good team, why should we be scared?

I *HATE* Independence for BYU. I *get* that the team gets more money and exposure. And I get that they get to play cool teams they wouldn't get to play in a G5 conference. I'm not necessarily an advocate for them joining a G5. The thing I hate so much about indy is the way it shapes the season.

Start out 4 decent P5
Play USU, Boise, and then 2-3 other good G5
End with three patsies.

(Generally that's how it works. I concede every schedule is unique.)

BYU is going to physically get the crap beat out of them, during the first 4 games. Best case scenario- 2-2 going into week 5, more likely 1-3, or possibly even 0-4. They SHOULD be favored against their next 8 opponents, but they're physically battered, and if they've been blown out in a game or two, their morale and confidence is low. And instead of going 4-0 against Toledo, Boise State. USU, and USF- they probably lose one or two. And then they're panicking- just trying to get bowl eligible, the last four games. I totally get that this is doom and gloom, and that I'm exaggerating a good deal- but 2017 showed how bad it can get, when the going gets bad. (For the record, I think BYU wins 7-8 games this year.)

If BYU were in a conference (P5 or G5) their tough games would be spread out, interspersed with gimmes- like Oregon State, for Utah. I'd even be more tolerable of independence if the games were more balanced.

As a Ute, I'm SO glad that Utah is in a P5 Conference. And I think it would be naive not to admit that it's given Utah an advantage over BYU. But as a Ute, I'm also totally humble enough to admit that we totally lucked out. Yes, we busted the BCS in 2004, and 2008, and MAYBE that played a small factor in our invite. But the biggest factor- by far- was the fact that Texas and the other Big-XII teams declined. We were the backup plan. I'm fine with that. But let's not pretend otherwise.

Also, if the shoe was on the other foot... and BYU got an invite to a P5 conference- and Utah tried to go indy... Utah would have an even harder time as an indy than BYU has had. We would have not been able to do what they have.


→ I get that this post is somewhat off-topic, from the rest of the thread. But your post rubbed me the wrong way.

1. You assumed I was a blue-goggled BYU fan.
2. You assumed I was suggesting that the PAC, as a whole was weak.
3. You came across as... arrogant. Yeah, Utah has been better than BYU recently, but don't act like a big part of that wasn't the fact that Utah won the lottery.