but that argument is definitely the cry of a person struggling in a debate, as is the attempt to bail out on the discussion by saying "no point in discussing this"

Face it - most of CB, including you expected far more from Doman and Hill. Both looked really good while hiding behind the coattails of the coaches ahead of them and like it or not the verdict is still out on Howell.

Seasons of 6-7, 5-7, 5-7 and finally a good one based on some last minute wins is hardly "competing" in the PAC. If that is what you term competing then you should be ecstatic with BYUs record over the past five years. You really seem to have problems correlating you opinion to actual facts. You keep pointing to Utahs failures and calling them successes. It is always disturbing when a BYU "fan" uses the pathetic arguments the worst of the yewts use.

As for the program - there are not "serious problems" - not even close. In fact the program is just fine. Are there issues - of course, just like there are with any program. But this is as strong as the program has ever been.