Guys, this isn’t hard. BYU is demonstrably a better school than Utah. It’s not

Nov 6, 2019
4:16:51pm

TriggerWarning All-American

very close. Utah is a good school, BYU is a great school. Utah fans are being ridiculous when they try and equate the two. The data confirms this, in terms average incoming GPA/SAT/ACT scores.

However, it’s just as ridiculous when I hear BYU fans equating BYU with elite schools like Ivy League schools, Vandy, Duke, Stanford, Northwestern, and some others. It’s just not, and again... the data confirms this.

This message has been modified

Originally posted on Nov 6, 2019 at 4:16:51pm

Message modified by TriggerWarning on Nov 6, 2019 at 4:17:37pm

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TriggerWarning

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Messages

Author

Time

Guys, this isn’t hard. BYU is demonstrably a better school than Utah. It’s not

TriggerWarning

11/6/19 4:16pm

On your second one it is true depending on context

puntersarepeople

11/6/19 4:27pm

and if talking about lower level Ivy schools, it isn't that far off

byu1

11/6/19 4:59pm

Not really. Cornell is waaaay more difficult to get into than BYU

jkccoug

11/6/19 8:57pm

RE: Not really. Cornell is waaaay more difficult to get into than BYU

WhyaskY?

11/6/19 9:11pm

Is that because Cornell's capacity is much smaller than BYU, or is there

Y05

11/7/19 2:50am

The 25th percentile ACT at Cornell is the 75th percentile at BYU

jkccoug

11/7/19 7:12am

Plus the acceptance rate is WAY lower. So even if you are in the range of

Scratch

11/7/19 7:18am

Acceptance rate is a false metric.

StalwartBraveTrue

11/7/19 12:18pm

Self-selection. Walk across Cornell

Archaea

11/7/19 4:15pm

That’s what I mean.

StalwartBraveTrue

11/7/19 4:22pm

The competitiveness to get accepted is what is different.

Archaea

11/7/19 4:26pm

Do you mean different from BYU, or generally everywhere?

Y05

11/7/19 4:42pm

Much different than BYU. You haven't seen grade whoring until

Archaea

11/7/19 4:48pm

Sure. But does acceptance rate = anything more than a popularity contest?

StalwartBraveTrue

11/7/19 4:53pm

Do you know what the major difference I find between Cornell and BYU is?

Archaea

11/7/19 4:30pm

Funny, my mother-in-law teaches at BYU and

kos

11/7/19 4:59pm

Probably generational

ReyOso

11/8/19 7:03am

Im guessing that is a lot of it, it is much smaller

byu1

11/7/19 10:24am

Cornell has 15,000 undergraduates and about 5000 to 6000 graduate

Archaea

11/7/19 4:13pm

ACT: BYU vs Stanford

Jeb

11/7/19 10:01am

you realize that Stanford isn't a lower tier Ivy league school, right?

byu1

11/7/19 10:25am

You're right. It's superior to most Ivy league schools

5150

11/8/19 5:46am

Quality of education relative to tuition

SCSLC81

11/6/19 6:11pm

Easy to get confused though

puntersarepeople

11/6/19 6:51pm

And how do you assess quality of education?

Mises

11/7/19 2:48pm

Totally agree. Also, if you base it off research, usually

The Llama

11/7/19 6:45pm

Funny comment.

StalwartBraveTrue

11/7/19 8:06pm

Meh. Since when is that a real thing?

lilpenny

11/6/19 7:05pm

RE: Meh. Since when is that a real thing?

puntersarepeople

11/6/19 8:10pm

That's only because BYU is so cheap for LDS kids

reddead

11/7/19 8:52am

For undergraduate? Sure

Colorado

11/6/19 5:12pm

The students that come to BYU (GPA/SAT/ACT scores) do not mean the the University is better, it means the student body

TheLoneCougar

11/6/19 5:50pm

BYU's GPA/SAT/ACT scores are driven up by the number of mormon kids who

NotTokolosh

11/6/19 6:13pm

Including other measures BYU ranks higher, according to sites like USNews

bluebrotha

11/7/19 8:51am

What other measures does US News say BYU outranks Utah in that aren't primarily

Scratch

11/7/19 9:00am

Gee, read all about their multiple factors criteria here:

bluebrotha

11/7/19 11:50am

I understand that. Where does US News say how the schools fared compared to

Scratch

11/7/19 11:51am

I’m not sure. I just know that according to them, when including all categories,

bluebrotha

11/7/19 11:57am

I thought my undergrad at BYU was just as tough as my masters at Northwestern

Fui Invested

11/6/19 6:23pm

Interesting, not my experience.

lilpenny

11/6/19 7:10pm

I am more in this camp.

Cougstreak

11/7/19 5:49am

I was at the top of my class for my Masters,Bro was top of his for Dental school

byu1

11/7/19 10:28am

Definitely depends on the program. Utah has some great engineering

The Llama

11/7/19 1:23pm

Everyone has different experiences

bluelands

11/7/19 1:33pm

Same with law school. I felt well prepared after BYU.

Freeloader

11/6/19 7:25pm

In general curriculum across the board is going to be similarly difficult

Sweetness

11/6/19 10:30pm

Does Harvard teach accounting? I didn't think it had an accounting program.

Archaea

11/7/19 4:26pm

This may be true for most of those that identify as "Mormon", but.......

Doc Buff

11/6/19 7:04pm

For quality of education? No cigar

puntersarepeople

11/6/19 8:13pm

This totally depends on what you're studying

ReyOso

11/6/19 7:20pm

Top 5 feeder to HBS according to a friend of mine

The Llama

11/6/19 7:29pm

No one disputes the quality of undergradstudents, which is why so many are place

Scratch

11/6/19 7:38pm

So how would you like to determine if a school provides a great education?

GigantorCat

11/6/19 9:17pm

Those are all primarily student-driven. Metrics that look at the quality of the

Scratch

11/6/19 9:27pm

But if the average graduate of a university is seen as superior the degree from that institution is more valued.

mvtoro

11/7/19 1:33am

Not really. It just means that there will be more 9s (to use your example)

Scratch

11/7/19 7:29am

There may be some examples of admissions officers who look at class rank over individual ability like you pointed out

mvtoro

11/7/19 10:14am

They are both good schools, but for BYU and Utah alumni to act

Archaea

11/7/19 10:57am

By the way, here’s an analysis that puts BYU at no. 17 a few years ago.

Scratch

11/6/19 7:45pm

A few years ago? It's closer to a decade old than being a few. lol 2012 estimate

GigantorCat

11/6/19 9:21pm

Just leave the BYU board. Just leave. If Utah is so great, WHY are you here?

bluebrotha

11/7/19 8:54am

Because this board talks more about Utah than most other boards out there.

Scratch

11/7/19 8:59am

pretty good, ahead of Northwestern, UVA, Mich, Cambridge, UCLA, Oxford, Carnegie

byu1

11/7/19 10:36am

Very true. We've been on many visits to each school to find talent

Coug Dude

11/6/19 7:37pm

BYU is no where close to any of the Ivys...but

tmurphey44

11/6/19 8:35pm

BYU is ranked 692 in global universities in the latest U.S. News

UNHuskerCoug

11/6/19 8:42pm

US News has BYU at 77 and Utah at 104 in national rankings.

canofpicante

11/6/19 9:16pm

Links if you need them:

canofpicante

11/6/19 9:20pm

RE: US News has BYU at 77 and Utah at 104 in national rankings.

SCSLC81

11/6/19 9:21pm

Forbes is undergrad. Us news is the entire university.

canofpicante

11/6/19 10:10pm

Except it isn't. It expicitly says the opposite, as do US News' listed criteria

Scratch

11/7/19 11:01am

It does not say anywhere that only undergrad is considered. SHOW ME.

canofpicante

11/7/19 11:21am

LOL, Awesome. No, that link is just for undergraduate TEACHING. Note that it

Scratch

11/7/19 11:40am

Holy. Read the heading. It is for undergrad instruction, not for teachers.

canofpicante

11/7/19 11:47am

Dude, the heading says "Undergraduate Teaching." It also only lists 95 schools.

Scratch

11/7/19 11:57am

Those are undergrad. Everything that ranks overall universities has the U higher

Scratch

11/6/19 9:22pm

Read. US News Specifically says they’re considering grad programs.

canofpicante

11/6/19 10:17pm

Where does it say that? And it wouldn't make sense considering US News has

Scratch

11/6/19 10:50pm

You’re not great at reading are you? Go to the link.

canofpicante

11/7/19 10:46am

RE: You’re not great at reading are you? Go to the link.

Scratch

11/7/19 10:59am

Exactly. BYU and Utah are in the same group: National Universities.

canofpicante

11/7/19 11:10am

In case you missed it where I posted it elsewhere and because you keep asking:

Scratch

11/7/19 11:42am

They have an undergrad ranking.

canofpicante

11/7/19 11:19am

RE: They have an undergrad ranking.

Scratch

11/7/19 11:41am

It says on there it is rating undergrad and post grad. Sorry to rain on your

pappabear246

11/6/19 11:14pm

So where does it say that? Because on the methodology page for those rankings

Scratch

11/6/19 11:27pm

Read the whole methodology page, not just you favorite parts.

canofpicante

11/7/19 10:47am

LOL, you're way off here. The section you quote only deals with how they group

Scratch

11/7/19 10:59am

US NEWS has an undergrad ranking. National university rank is the whole school.

canofpicante

11/7/19 11:13am

No, it never says it weighs grad programs, it just says that category of schools

Scratch

11/7/19 11:37am

Of course the are considering undergrad...

canofpicante

11/7/19 11:57am

I just did. They said it in their heading. They say it in their criteria. They

Scratch

11/7/19 12:00pm

US News is the most commonly used ranking. According to them, BYU is

DoseOfReality

11/7/19 9:05am

"Most commonly used ranking"

NYCUte

11/7/19 12:40pm

Most commonly cited by this crowd because it usually ranks BYU highest..

DoseOfReality

11/8/19 8:25am

RE: BYU is ranked 692 in global universities in the latest U.S. News

SCSLC81

11/6/19 9:17pm

Ie, “the post that most supports my opinion”

mvtoro

11/7/19 1:52am

All of this is based upon BYU choices

Shovel jockey

11/6/19 8:49pm

RE: All of this is based upon BYU choices

SCSLC81

11/6/19 9:12pm

As a person who has founded medical schools I disagree completely with you

Shovel jockey

11/6/19 9:24pm

RE: As a person who has founded medical schools I disagree completely with you

SCSLC81

11/6/19 9:56pm

If that was the impression than I apologize.

Shovel jockey

11/7/19 11:25am

Where did you get that Shovel Jockey was implying that Provo would not be

FanofBYU

11/7/19 2:01pm

Were they all in the Caribbean?

kos

11/7/19 8:31am

Lol. Nope all in the states.

Shovel jockey

11/7/19 8:35am

Did I hear a Vandy in there?

Big McLargeHuge

11/6/19 9:02pm

Lolzzz. This reminds me...

DocPimp

11/6/19 9:21pm

I don’t think he knows what “demonstrably” means.

Scratch

11/6/19 9:32pm

Higher ACT does not define a superior institution

Modiolus

11/7/19 5:15am

Neither does a lot of other things here. They are not really comparable

Colorado

11/7/19 5:50am

Ivy League schools kinda cheat on their undergrad stats.

frontrowcougar

11/7/19 7:04am

That's also true of the top students at Utah, generally.

kos

11/7/19 8:32am

Not even close. The top 1500-2000 students of BYUs

valleus

11/7/19 3:28pm

Fair point. I suppose I meant that the top students at Utah were of the same

kos

11/7/19 4:07pm

I agree there.

valleus

11/7/19 4:40pm

Not nearly so easy

djetal

11/7/19 8:45am

THIS is a reasonable take.

DocPimp

11/7/19 10:00am

Perfectly said.

NYCUte

11/7/19 12:28pm

Ding, ding, ding. Winner

FanofBYU

11/7/19 2:03pm

4 words: academic freedom and research

Cougar Spankx

11/7/19 12:55pm

Depends on what you’re studying. There is a whole lot of money at Utah.

idkwhatiexpected

11/7/19 3:29pm

Ridiculous to judge the quality of a school by the intelligence of the students

Plato

11/7/19 3:42pm

RE: Guys, this isn’t hard. BYU is demonstrably a better school than Utah. It’s

JustmeintheSLC

11/7/19 3:48pm

Not sure you meant to say it but it sounds like you are saying all Pac 12 schools are AAU members...

Tokolosh

11/7/19 3:50pm

RE: Not sure you meant to say it but it sounds like you are saying all Pac 12

JustmeintheSLC

11/7/19 3:54pm

A good measure of worth is Return on Investment of the degree - BYU ROI $595,000

Jasbo

11/7/19 6:21pm

So how is it calculated? BYU grads should make more becase, on average, they

Scratch

11/7/19 6:32pm

This is such a dumb take for obvious reasons.

DocPimp

11/8/19 6:27am

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