The argument against him.

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Mar 28, 2024
1:21:18pm

dwhitebud All-American

The argument against him.

I don't think he was ever better than the 3rd best player on his own team. At times he was 4th or even 5th.

He was clearly behind Joe Morgan and Johnny Bench. And then you also had George Foster who was better than him for a long time. Tony Perez was a similar level of talent for a long time. And that's before we even get to any of their pitchers.

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dwhitebud

Bio page: dwhitebud
Joined: Sep 21, 2009
Last login: Apr 28, 2024
Total posts: 3,261 (13 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Who are the top 5 players of all time? IMO: Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Gehrig

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 11:05am

Pete Rose has to be on that list!!

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 11:07am

I assume you're kidding.

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:10am

Not even a little bit!

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 11:14am

Sorry, that's totally insane. Rose had almost no positional/defensive value

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:25am

Yeah, he wasn’t even good enough to get into the Hall of Fame!!!

Mar 28, 11:34am

The idea that the all-time hits leader isn't top 100 tells me

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 12:41pm

The idea that you think number of singles can establish greatness tells me all

Scratch

Mar 28, 12:42pm

I'm somewhere in the middle of this.

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 12:53pm

Certainly more reasonable than not being in someone's top 100!!

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 1:26pm

One thing I'll give Scratch - I don't think he has a top 100 peak

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:32pm

He may be top-100 all-time. It's tough to just kind of make a call like that

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:36pm

Where do you rank Tony Gwynn?

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 1:39pm

Off the top of my head probably just a little behind Rose.

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:43pm

Here ya go. Maybe this will help.

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 1:06pm

Great. Almost all of those have to do with longevity and reinforce my point

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:11pm

Which is why MVPs and Cy Young awards should factor in. Bonds and Clemens had 7.

Mar 28, 1:39pm

And by the way, the two years he won the gold glove he had a negative defensive

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:13pm

The argument against him.

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:21pm

And that's during his peak. He had many years where he was playing to chase the

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:42pm

Right. If you put the cutoff line at 1981 (last year with 100+ OPS+)

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:55pm

Spot on. Good analysis and a good comp, with Brett being a bit better hitter

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:59pm

He hung on way too long to get that record.

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:01pm

Nah

Mar 28, 11:26am

Barry Bonds > Hank Aaron

Mar 28, 11:07am

Roids

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 12:18pm

Without looking at yours: Mays, Ruth, Gibson, Cobb, Bonds

BaseCoug

Mar 28, 11:08am

Has to include Ruth, Bonds, Mays, and Cobb. #5 is really hard. Wagner?

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:13am

I think you gotta have a pitcher. Walter Johnson dominated his era more than anyone else. I think Walter or Rocket have

shimmy

Mar 28, 11:32am

But, as a general rule, the top position players are more valuable than pitchers

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:39am

Betts, Ohtani, Freeman, Smith, Muncy

StantonMac

Mar 28, 11:19am

Williams was much better than Aaron. Especially since he had to join WW2 and

marinact

Mar 28, 11:22am

No one in the last 50 years?

PHXSUNS31

Mar 28, 11:23am

Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Palmeiro

STL

Mar 28, 11:23am

RE: Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Palmeiro

txblue

Mar 28, 11:25am

Nolan Ryan has to be on the list

Skeptical Optimist

Mar 28, 11:27am

I'd take Clemens over Ryan.

Mar 28, 11:28am

Hmm. Clemens was on better teams, but still, he might get the edge.

txblue

Mar 28, 11:32am

There's no way to argue Nolan over Clemens (except roids, I guess). And I hate

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:35am

I agree, but I don't think the edge is all that much.

txblue

Mar 28, 11:38am

It is. Nolan was a below-average pitcher for about 1/3 of his career.

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:41am

Not my impression, but I'll take your word for it. Not going to research

txblue

Mar 28, 1:13pm

Just looking at seasonal ERA+ to draw that conclusion.

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:22pm

How did you determine 1/3?

Bullrider

Mar 28, 9:01pm

I counted the number of seasons where his ERA+ was under 100. 100 is league

Scratch

Mar 30, 12:02pm

Clemens ERA+ of 143. Ryan ERA+ of 112.

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:35am

7 No Hitters vs 0

Skeptical Optimist

Mar 28, 11:36am

Yep, which is an almost meaningless number when evaluating all-time greatness

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:43am

I will submit this as my final piece of evidence and then bow out of this

Skeptical Optimist

Mar 28, 12:16pm

One of the best moments in MLB history.

Scratch

Mar 28, 12:30pm

Roids

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 12:17pm

I don’t see any caveats here, so Walter Johnson and Cy Young have to be included

Mar 28, 11:27am

It's so hard to compare pitchers from that era. But it's hard to omit Walter

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:32am

Bonds, Ruth, Aaron, A-Rod, Clemens

Mar 28, 11:28am

Bonds, Ruth, Mays, Walter Johnson, Cobb.

shimmy

Mar 28, 11:30am

Bonds has 7 MVPs. Clemens has 7 Cy Young Awards. Start there.

Mar 28, 11:30am

💉

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 12:38pm

We get it. Bonds is still the greatest hitter ever by a wide margin.

Mar 28, 1:40pm

I just want to give a shout out to Stan Musial and Ted Williams...

Mar 28, 11:36am

Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Cobb, Williams

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 11:38am

Don’t forget Negro League Players Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Oscar Charleston

RJCOD

Mar 28, 11:45am

I feel Ted Williams was the best ever. He gave five years in the prime of

Bullrider

Mar 28, 12:38pm

It was 3 years to the military and he hit .400 before

PHXSUNS31

Mar 28, 12:41pm

Remember he also served 2 years in the Korean War, total 5 years. It does

Bullrider

Mar 28, 8:53pm

I did not realize that…that makes sense why he barely played in 52/53 then

PHXSUNS31

Mar 28, 9:09pm

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