He may be top-100 all-time. It's tough to just kind of make a call like that

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Mar 28, 2024
1:36:32pm

Scratch All-American

He may be top-100 all-time. It's tough to just kind of make a call like that

without really thinking through it. Shooting from the hip I'd say he's definitely not top 50, but most likely somewhere in the 75-150 range. Which is saying a lot. There are just way too many holes and limitations in his game to be much higher than that.

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Scratch

Bio page: Scratch
Joined: Jan 14, 2004
Last login: Apr 27, 2024
Total posts: 12,254 (367 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Who are the top 5 players of all time? IMO: Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Aaron, Gehrig

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 11:05am

Pete Rose has to be on that list!!

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 11:07am

I assume you're kidding.

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:10am

Not even a little bit!

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 11:14am

Sorry, that's totally insane. Rose had almost no positional/defensive value

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:25am

Yeah, he wasn’t even good enough to get into the Hall of Fame!!!

Mar 28, 11:34am

The idea that the all-time hits leader isn't top 100 tells me

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 12:41pm

The idea that you think number of singles can establish greatness tells me all

Scratch

Mar 28, 12:42pm

I'm somewhere in the middle of this.

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 12:53pm

Certainly more reasonable than not being in someone's top 100!!

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 1:26pm

One thing I'll give Scratch - I don't think he has a top 100 peak

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:32pm

He may be top-100 all-time. It's tough to just kind of make a call like that

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:36pm

Where do you rank Tony Gwynn?

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 1:39pm

Off the top of my head probably just a little behind Rose.

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:43pm

Here ya go. Maybe this will help.

AzCugrFan

Mar 28, 1:06pm

Great. Almost all of those have to do with longevity and reinforce my point

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:11pm

Which is why MVPs and Cy Young awards should factor in. Bonds and Clemens had 7.

Mar 28, 1:39pm

And by the way, the two years he won the gold glove he had a negative defensive

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:13pm

The argument against him.

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:21pm

And that's during his peak. He had many years where he was playing to chase the

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:42pm

Right. If you put the cutoff line at 1981 (last year with 100+ OPS+)

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:55pm

Spot on. Good analysis and a good comp, with Brett being a bit better hitter

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:59pm

He hung on way too long to get that record.

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 1:01pm

Nah

Mar 28, 11:26am

Barry Bonds > Hank Aaron

Mar 28, 11:07am

Roids

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 12:18pm

Without looking at yours: Mays, Ruth, Gibson, Cobb, Bonds

BaseCoug

Mar 28, 11:08am

Has to include Ruth, Bonds, Mays, and Cobb. #5 is really hard. Wagner?

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:13am

I think you gotta have a pitcher. Walter Johnson dominated his era more than anyone else. I think Walter or Rocket have

shimmy

Mar 28, 11:32am

But, as a general rule, the top position players are more valuable than pitchers

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:39am

Betts, Ohtani, Freeman, Smith, Muncy

StantonMac

Mar 28, 11:19am

Williams was much better than Aaron. Especially since he had to join WW2 and

marinact

Mar 28, 11:22am

No one in the last 50 years?

PHXSUNS31

Mar 28, 11:23am

Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Palmeiro

STL

Mar 28, 11:23am

RE: Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, A-Rod, Palmeiro

txblue

Mar 28, 11:25am

Nolan Ryan has to be on the list

Skeptical Optimist

Mar 28, 11:27am

I'd take Clemens over Ryan.

Mar 28, 11:28am

Hmm. Clemens was on better teams, but still, he might get the edge.

txblue

Mar 28, 11:32am

There's no way to argue Nolan over Clemens (except roids, I guess). And I hate

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:35am

I agree, but I don't think the edge is all that much.

txblue

Mar 28, 11:38am

It is. Nolan was a below-average pitcher for about 1/3 of his career.

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:41am

Not my impression, but I'll take your word for it. Not going to research

txblue

Mar 28, 1:13pm

Just looking at seasonal ERA+ to draw that conclusion.

Scratch

Mar 28, 1:22pm

How did you determine 1/3?

Bullrider

Mar 28, 9:01pm

I counted the number of seasons where his ERA+ was under 100. 100 is league

Scratch

Mar 30, 12:02pm

Clemens ERA+ of 143. Ryan ERA+ of 112.

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:35am

7 No Hitters vs 0

Skeptical Optimist

Mar 28, 11:36am

Yep, which is an almost meaningless number when evaluating all-time greatness

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:43am

I will submit this as my final piece of evidence and then bow out of this

Skeptical Optimist

Mar 28, 12:16pm

One of the best moments in MLB history.

Scratch

Mar 28, 12:30pm

Roids

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 12:17pm

I don’t see any caveats here, so Walter Johnson and Cy Young have to be included

Mar 28, 11:27am

It's so hard to compare pitchers from that era. But it's hard to omit Walter

Scratch

Mar 28, 11:32am

Bonds, Ruth, Aaron, A-Rod, Clemens

Mar 28, 11:28am

Bonds, Ruth, Mays, Walter Johnson, Cobb.

shimmy

Mar 28, 11:30am

Bonds has 7 MVPs. Clemens has 7 Cy Young Awards. Start there.

Mar 28, 11:30am

💉

arizonacougarfan

Mar 28, 12:38pm

We get it. Bonds is still the greatest hitter ever by a wide margin.

Mar 28, 1:40pm

I just want to give a shout out to Stan Musial and Ted Williams...

Mar 28, 11:36am

Ruth, Mays, Bonds, Cobb, Williams

dwhitebud

Mar 28, 11:38am

Don’t forget Negro League Players Josh Gibson, Satchel Paige, Oscar Charleston

RJCOD

Mar 28, 11:45am

I feel Ted Williams was the best ever. He gave five years in the prime of

Bullrider

Mar 28, 12:38pm

It was 3 years to the military and he hit .400 before

PHXSUNS31

Mar 28, 12:41pm

Remember he also served 2 years in the Korean War, total 5 years. It does

Bullrider

Mar 28, 8:53pm

I did not realize that…that makes sense why he barely played in 52/53 then

PHXSUNS31

Mar 28, 9:09pm

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