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Jan 25, 2015
10:06:04am

Abe Froman

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This message has been modified

Originally posted on Jan 25, 2015 at 10:06:04am

Message modified by Abe Froman on Jan 14, 2021 at 8:54:28am

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Abe Froman

Previous username: Rise and Shout
Bio page: Abe Froman
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
Last login: Apr 27, 2024
Total posts: 86,606 (7,631 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Just watched a documentary on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Probably the most

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:14am

It wasn't your fault.

Slim

1/25/15 9:15am

*wasn't all

HoustonCougar

1/25/15 9:17am

The hard right over the easy wrong is how I look at it

jrifkin48

1/25/15 9:18am

I am grateful for everyone in the service, my brother is in the Navy, but I

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:27am

Maybe if we only looked at it in a vaccuum. But if you add in all the context

YSMACK

1/25/15 9:46am

Not everyone in the military at that time did sign up

Metallicat

1/25/15 10:08am

Our history is full of it. This is just one example.

GA_Coug

1/25/15 9:20am

I used to live in Hiroshima. I understand exactly how you feel. If you add the

Japan Coug

1/25/15 9:27am

IMO, it was a calculated decision and it worked. It was meant to break

Cosmo Kramer

1/25/15 9:30am

I got into a fist fight in middle school and was held after

SanDiegoCoug

1/25/15 9:32am

According to this logic we should level the Middle East.

GA_Coug

1/25/15 9:37am

Yep. And most of Africa.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:38am

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 9:44am

YSMACK

1/25/15 10:15am

It's really hard to pass judgment without understanding the context

Josef K

1/25/15 10:17am

it's hard to understand the savage decision the Japanese made to not surrender

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:50am

1.2 million more estimated had the war continued

whirl

1/25/15 9:35am

Only if you accept that unconditional surrender was the only alternative

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:51am

and you must, the Japanese culture at the time was horrifically barbaric and

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:53am

You owe it to yourself to watch City of Life and Death on Netflix.

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 9:37am

I'll check it out.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:39am

if you don't know anything about it you might want to read up a little before

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:51am

Good advise ^ Just as bad as the atrocities started in the book of Mormon during

MHOP

1/25/15 3:02pm

When you look at the projections for what would have happened if we invaded

PharmD

1/25/15 9:41am

the estimated cost in lives of a land invasion of Japan was much worse

Cougarclaw

1/25/15 9:42am

My favorite work on the subject is Dan carlin's hard core history podcast

jrob30

1/25/15 9:43am

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 9:43am

were the civilians getting nuked and firebombed guilty of warcrimes?

BYUtiful

1/25/15 9:48am

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 10:06am

you're really great at asking questions, but getting grumpy when others do the

BYUtiful

1/25/15 10:52am

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 11:07am

what can i say, i can apparently read you like a book

BYUtiful

1/25/15 11:14am

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 12:23pm

you chastise me for putting words in your mouth then do the same thing

BYUtiful

1/25/15 12:37pm

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 12:59pm

it's OK, I forgive you

BYUtiful

1/25/15 1:06pm

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 1:36pm

Does watching "Unbroken" count?

RC Vikings

1/25/15 9:59am

you should read "flyboys" by james bradley...

ds7

1/25/15 10:13am

Terrible, but 5 or 8 POW's in comparison to over 300,000 civilians?

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:35am

Start reading up on the Rape of Nanjing.

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 11:38am

thats just one story. the brutality of the Japanese of POWs is pretty

fattycoug

1/25/15 11:49am

the Japanese were disgusting

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:58am

The Germans only treated POWs of the Western allies well

spinner

1/26/15 7:43am

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ArcticKat

1/27/15 1:57pm

this is a must read to understand the mentality of Japanese leadership

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:57am

with the passage of time, people have forgotten just what evil we were facing

ds7

1/25/15 12:12pm

Moderately familiar. But once again very few if any on us non military citizens

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:13am

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Abe Froman

1/25/15 2:22pm

I watched it also, the decision to nuke is at best a 51% yes in hindsight. The

ToasterChive

1/25/15 9:43am

The Germans had already surrendered when we dropped the bomb.

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 9:46am

Yes, my point is just that the fear of defeat was a realistic fear during WW2.

ToasterChive

1/25/15 9:51am

Early in the war, yes. Not in 1945.

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:06am

Thats what I got out of it also. Not a fear of losing but just being sick of war

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:16am

So you're arguing that losing substantially more American and Japanese lives in

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 11:20am

Those are two "bookends," but they probably weren't the only two alternatives.

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:25am

They were the only alternatives with the bomb being fractionally the best choice

ToasterChive

1/25/15 11:36am

How about the alternative where we accept Japan's offer to surrender as long as

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:41am

that would be ridiculous.... the Emperor would just continue with what he had

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:45am

We spared the Emperor anyway, and he was not tried as a war criminal, which was

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:47am

we eviscerated the whole society, they knew they lost, that was the only way

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:55am

Really?

Ebolarama

1/25/15 12:02pm

Hiroshima Hoax: Japan's 'Wllingness to Surrender Before the Bomb

Cully

1/26/15 1:37am

Hiroshima

Japan Coug

1/26/15 4:21am

I'm going off that by most accounts Japan was on its very last leg and the

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:34am

RE: I'm going off that by most accounts Japan was on its very last leg and the

Bullrider

1/25/15 2:36pm

Treason? Really?

Ebolarama

1/25/15 4:06pm

given the alternatives, what would any moral person do in truman's position?

ds7

1/25/15 9:47am

One alternative would have been to accept something less than unconditional

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:12am

Good insight. I would not have accepted less than unconditional surrender if I

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 11:25am

And I understand that point of view. I just think we should be clear that the

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:29am

blame the Japanese Gov

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:35am

This was also a common theme shared by the japanese survivors.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:36am

it's true, I've talked to many people about it on my mission...

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:38am

There's a big difference between pardoning a convict and not convicting in the

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 12:13pm

well said

kotacoug

1/25/15 12:18pm

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ArcticKat

1/27/15 1:51pm

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ArcticKat

1/25/15 11:56am

That's a heavy price to pay in innocent civilian lives, for political expediency

Japan Coug

1/25/15 12:43pm

You are referring to the Japanese emperor and leadership right?

kotacoug

1/25/15 12:45pm

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ArcticKat

1/25/15 3:52pm

I did a report on this in law school

spinner

1/25/15 9:48am

My Dad was the private pilot for Curtis LeMay for about 6 weeks.

ClackamasCoug

1/25/15 10:09am

How many were killed by the firebombing?

8man

1/25/15 12:09pm

80-100K estimated in the March 9, 1945 raids

spinner

1/25/15 3:10pm

McNamara said had we lost the war, he would have been convicted of war crimes

Rogue Gunner

1/25/15 9:48am

i think the estimates for loss of life for an invasion of japan were over 1 mil

monkeycowboy

1/25/15 9:55am

You haven't seen the devastating bombings the Nazis did in Europe

Bobby Dooley

1/25/15 9:57am

The Brits' and Americans' bombings actually did many times more damage

spinner

1/25/15 10:01am

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ds7

1/25/15 10:04am

Um, it saved lots of lives. Japan was going to fight to the death.

notsofast

1/25/15 10:03am

exactly, it allowed the peace factions inside japan to convince the emperor that

ds7

1/25/15 10:05am

Maybe, and not necessarily. Depends on how important you think it was to obtain

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:15am

they needed to be broken, there needed to be no conditions attached. You know

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:42am

I do know Japanese culture, and I'm not nearly as sure of this as you seem to be

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:44am

Well luckily the leaders at time came to a different conclusion based on their

kotacoug

1/25/15 12:16pm

am american POW was 3x more likely to die in a japanese camp than a german one

ds7

1/25/15 12:40pm

The bomb was for Stalin

ChopperDave

1/25/15 10:07am

so say "some historians" w/ flawed hindsight...

ds7

1/25/15 10:11am

I think this factor was definitely part of the equation when making the

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:30am

Which documentary?

8man

1/25/15 10:39am

Its on HBO on demand. I don't have the name off the top of my head.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:15am

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ArcticKat

1/25/15 11:44am

As horrific as the atomic bombings were, I really think they were the lesser of

eddog

1/25/15 4:30pm

And this may be true. But I certainly think its up for discussion.

Ebolarama

1/26/15 9:49am

Japan was already arming and training women and children. They were in it until

Cosmo Kramer

1/27/15 12:54pm

The Japanese (well in the interviews I've heard) don't think thats true.

Ebolarama

1/27/15 12:58pm

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