How about the alternative where we accept Japan's offer to surrender as long as

Jan 25, 2015
11:41:38am

Japan Coug

we spare the Emperor and not occupy the Japanese mainland militarily? Or, just spare the Emperor, which appears to have been their last offer before we dropped the bombs? And which we ended up doing anyway, BTW.

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Japan Coug

Bio page: Japan Coug
Joined: Feb 3, 2003
Last login: Apr 26, 2024
Total posts: 35,060 (521 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Just watched a documentary on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Probably the most

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:14am

It wasn't your fault.

Slim

1/25/15 9:15am

*wasn't all

HoustonCougar

1/25/15 9:17am

The hard right over the easy wrong is how I look at it

jrifkin48

1/25/15 9:18am

I am grateful for everyone in the service, my brother is in the Navy, but I

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:27am

Maybe if we only looked at it in a vaccuum. But if you add in all the context

YSMACK

1/25/15 9:46am

Not everyone in the military at that time did sign up

Metallicat

1/25/15 10:08am

Our history is full of it. This is just one example.

GA_Coug

1/25/15 9:20am

I used to live in Hiroshima. I understand exactly how you feel. If you add the

Japan Coug

1/25/15 9:27am

IMO, it was a calculated decision and it worked. It was meant to break

Cosmo Kramer

1/25/15 9:30am

I got into a fist fight in middle school and was held after

SanDiegoCoug

1/25/15 9:32am

According to this logic we should level the Middle East.

GA_Coug

1/25/15 9:37am

Yep. And most of Africa.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:38am

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 9:44am

YSMACK

1/25/15 10:15am

It's really hard to pass judgment without understanding the context

Josef K

1/25/15 10:17am

it's hard to understand the savage decision the Japanese made to not surrender

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:50am

1.2 million more estimated had the war continued

whirl

1/25/15 9:35am

Only if you accept that unconditional surrender was the only alternative

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:51am

and you must, the Japanese culture at the time was horrifically barbaric and

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:53am

You owe it to yourself to watch City of Life and Death on Netflix.

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 9:37am

I'll check it out.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 9:39am

if you don't know anything about it you might want to read up a little before

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:51am

Good advise ^ Just as bad as the atrocities started in the book of Mormon during

MHOP

1/25/15 3:02pm

When you look at the projections for what would have happened if we invaded

PharmD

1/25/15 9:41am

the estimated cost in lives of a land invasion of Japan was much worse

Cougarclaw

1/25/15 9:42am

My favorite work on the subject is Dan carlin's hard core history podcast

jrob30

1/25/15 9:43am

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 9:43am

were the civilians getting nuked and firebombed guilty of warcrimes?

BYUtiful

1/25/15 9:48am

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 10:06am

you're really great at asking questions, but getting grumpy when others do the

BYUtiful

1/25/15 10:52am

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 11:07am

what can i say, i can apparently read you like a book

BYUtiful

1/25/15 11:14am

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 12:23pm

you chastise me for putting words in your mouth then do the same thing

BYUtiful

1/25/15 12:37pm

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 12:59pm

it's OK, I forgive you

BYUtiful

1/25/15 1:06pm

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 1:36pm

Does watching "Unbroken" count?

RC Vikings

1/25/15 9:59am

you should read "flyboys" by james bradley...

ds7

1/25/15 10:13am

Terrible, but 5 or 8 POW's in comparison to over 300,000 civilians?

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:35am

Start reading up on the Rape of Nanjing.

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 11:38am

thats just one story. the brutality of the Japanese of POWs is pretty

fattycoug

1/25/15 11:49am

the Japanese were disgusting

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:58am

The Germans only treated POWs of the Western allies well

spinner

1/26/15 7:43am

<< Deleted >>

ArcticKat

1/27/15 1:57pm

this is a must read to understand the mentality of Japanese leadership

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:57am

with the passage of time, people have forgotten just what evil we were facing

ds7

1/25/15 12:12pm

Moderately familiar. But once again very few if any on us non military citizens

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:13am

<< Deleted >>

Abe Froman

1/25/15 2:22pm

I watched it also, the decision to nuke is at best a 51% yes in hindsight. The

ToasterChive

1/25/15 9:43am

The Germans had already surrendered when we dropped the bomb.

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 9:46am

Yes, my point is just that the fear of defeat was a realistic fear during WW2.

ToasterChive

1/25/15 9:51am

Early in the war, yes. Not in 1945.

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:06am

Thats what I got out of it also. Not a fear of losing but just being sick of war

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:16am

So you're arguing that losing substantially more American and Japanese lives in

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 11:20am

Those are two "bookends," but they probably weren't the only two alternatives.

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:25am

They were the only alternatives with the bomb being fractionally the best choice

ToasterChive

1/25/15 11:36am

How about the alternative where we accept Japan's offer to surrender as long as

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:41am

that would be ridiculous.... the Emperor would just continue with what he had

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:45am

We spared the Emperor anyway, and he was not tried as a war criminal, which was

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:47am

we eviscerated the whole society, they knew they lost, that was the only way

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:55am

Really?

Ebolarama

1/25/15 12:02pm

Hiroshima Hoax: Japan's 'Wllingness to Surrender Before the Bomb

Cully

1/26/15 1:37am

Hiroshima

Japan Coug

1/26/15 4:21am

I'm going off that by most accounts Japan was on its very last leg and the

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:34am

RE: I'm going off that by most accounts Japan was on its very last leg and the

Bullrider

1/25/15 2:36pm

Treason? Really?

Ebolarama

1/25/15 4:06pm

given the alternatives, what would any moral person do in truman's position?

ds7

1/25/15 9:47am

One alternative would have been to accept something less than unconditional

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:12am

Good insight. I would not have accepted less than unconditional surrender if I

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 11:25am

And I understand that point of view. I just think we should be clear that the

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:29am

blame the Japanese Gov

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:35am

This was also a common theme shared by the japanese survivors.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:36am

it's true, I've talked to many people about it on my mission...

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:38am

There's a big difference between pardoning a convict and not convicting in the

QuinneyCoug

1/25/15 12:13pm

well said

kotacoug

1/25/15 12:18pm

<< Deleted >>

ArcticKat

1/27/15 1:51pm

<< Deleted >>

ArcticKat

1/25/15 11:56am

That's a heavy price to pay in innocent civilian lives, for political expediency

Japan Coug

1/25/15 12:43pm

You are referring to the Japanese emperor and leadership right?

kotacoug

1/25/15 12:45pm

<< Deleted >>

ArcticKat

1/25/15 3:52pm

I did a report on this in law school

spinner

1/25/15 9:48am

My Dad was the private pilot for Curtis LeMay for about 6 weeks.

ClackamasCoug

1/25/15 10:09am

How many were killed by the firebombing?

8man

1/25/15 12:09pm

80-100K estimated in the March 9, 1945 raids

spinner

1/25/15 3:10pm

McNamara said had we lost the war, he would have been convicted of war crimes

Rogue Gunner

1/25/15 9:48am

i think the estimates for loss of life for an invasion of japan were over 1 mil

monkeycowboy

1/25/15 9:55am

You haven't seen the devastating bombings the Nazis did in Europe

Bobby Dooley

1/25/15 9:57am

The Brits' and Americans' bombings actually did many times more damage

spinner

1/25/15 10:01am

<< Deleted >>

ds7

1/25/15 10:04am

Um, it saved lots of lives. Japan was going to fight to the death.

notsofast

1/25/15 10:03am

exactly, it allowed the peace factions inside japan to convince the emperor that

ds7

1/25/15 10:05am

Maybe, and not necessarily. Depends on how important you think it was to obtain

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:15am

they needed to be broken, there needed to be no conditions attached. You know

kotacoug

1/25/15 11:42am

I do know Japanese culture, and I'm not nearly as sure of this as you seem to be

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:44am

Well luckily the leaders at time came to a different conclusion based on their

kotacoug

1/25/15 12:16pm

am american POW was 3x more likely to die in a japanese camp than a german one

ds7

1/25/15 12:40pm

The bomb was for Stalin

ChopperDave

1/25/15 10:07am

so say "some historians" w/ flawed hindsight...

ds7

1/25/15 10:11am

I think this factor was definitely part of the equation when making the

Japan Coug

1/25/15 11:30am

Which documentary?

8man

1/25/15 10:39am

Its on HBO on demand. I don't have the name off the top of my head.

Ebolarama

1/25/15 11:15am

<< Deleted >>

ArcticKat

1/25/15 11:44am

As horrific as the atomic bombings were, I really think they were the lesser of

eddog

1/25/15 4:30pm

And this may be true. But I certainly think its up for discussion.

Ebolarama

1/26/15 9:49am

Japan was already arming and training women and children. They were in it until

Cosmo Kramer

1/27/15 12:54pm

The Japanese (well in the interviews I've heard) don't think thats true.

Ebolarama

1/27/15 12:58pm

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