The Big 12 used to be the more academically rigorous conference vs. the SEC.

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Feb 7, 2023
3:10:24pm

Baylorbears11 Contributor

The Big 12 used to be the more academically rigorous conference vs. the SEC.

At inception:
Big 12:
Colorado - AAU
Nebraska - AAU
Missouri - AAU
Texas A&M - AAU
Texas - AAU
Kansas - AAU
ISU - AAU

SEC:
Florida - AAU
Vanderbilt - AAU

Notice how many Big 12 schools have since moved over to the less "academically rigorous" SEC? I'm not discounting Altimore's arguments about the high value of research standing and academic cachet that is placed by the university president's when considering a move. History tells us in the Big 12 that is only a piece of the story.

Shared institutional profile, culture, etc. play a larger role in the decision making process. The PAC thumbing their noses at an R1 Baylor while simultaneously considering the R2 SMU and R2 SDSU, is extremely humorous to me when the argument comes down to "academic cachet".

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Baylorbears11

Bio page: Baylorbears11
Joined: Oct 11, 2011
Last login: May 2, 2024
Total posts: 586 (0 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Tony Altimore makes his case for no PAC12 teams joining the B12

2/7/23 2:28pm

Haha he thinks college football has something to do with academics..

TANK

2/7/23 2:32pm

He (correctly) thinks University Presidents (i.e. academics) are the ones making the decisions

krindorr

2/7/23 2:34pm

^^^Missed the line where Utah’s research $$$ increased by hundreds of millions

Medute

2/7/23 2:40pm

But it may not impact schools like Arizona/ASU and even Oregon as much

2/7/23 2:44pm

Only 2 reasons to jump: survival, lots more money

Medute

2/7/23 4:55pm

Avoiding less money and less exposure are also factors

2/7/23 6:24pm

What does research have to do with athletics? They can’t use it for sports

Bobmarleyjr

2/7/23 2:47pm

The AD doesn’t get to act unilaterally on these decisions

Medute

2/7/23 4:57pm

Then I hope they make athletics decisions based on research. Stay in PAC

Bobmarleyjr

2/7/23 5:10pm

Playing the Powerball lottery doesn't count.

2/7/23 2:50pm

Just like UNM. The increased research funding has nothing to do with athletics.

jvquarterback

2/7/23 3:07pm

Utah would fall in the middle in the Big 12 academic lineup

bluebrotha

2/7/23 3:19pm

Do you have a list of graduate programs and research dollars per year?

Medute

2/7/23 4:58pm

Unfortunately for you, the metric of research dollars isn’t the only metric

bluebrotha

2/7/23 6:07pm

I think you are missing my point and that's not surprising

Medute

2/7/23 6:33pm

It’s not surprising you’re also missing the point here…

The_Cuss

2/7/23 6:53pm

Valid points. Since you understand that, understand this:

2/7/23 9:34pm

That’s all fine and not a ton to disagree with

Medute

2/7/23 9:58pm

^^^Missed the part where Utah matters in anything..

TANK

2/7/23 3:44pm

RE: ^^^Missed the line where Utah’s research $$$ increased by hundreds of

2/7/23 4:09pm

This is true. Academic affiliation with the likes of UCLA, Stanford, Cal, and Wa

2/7/23 4:31pm

RE: ^^^Missed the line where Utah’s research $$$ increased by hundreds of

The_Cuss

2/7/23 4:51pm

Great summary. Thanks for sharing.

TFL

2/7/23 2:36pm

Shortsighted though. After UW, UO, Stanford leave, those factors fade fast

bruincoug

2/7/23 2:38pm

If Washington and Stanford leave there is no Pac12

2/7/23 2:40pm

Xacly

bruincoug

2/7/23 2:50pm

Hey whatever works to keep them in PAC I support.

Bobmarleyjr

2/7/23 2:40pm

Yet, this group of "elite" academic research institutions is considering adding

TrueBlue67

2/7/23 2:43pm

And counts amongst its members ASU, Arizona, Utah, Washington State, and Oregon State

2/7/23 2:45pm

This! They have no choice but to dilute their Pac12 product. It's not the same

2/7/23 2:46pm

Not an expert, but isn’t SMU a pretty good academic school?

Medute

2/7/23 5:08pm

SMU and SDSU may be better than Utah, academically, but are hardly top shelf

ryebrye

2/7/23 5:11pm

SMU looks to be ranked higher than BYU. So I guess we are all middle shelf

Medute

2/7/23 5:42pm

The fact that he tries to prop up the SEC in terms of academics undermines his

2/7/23 2:46pm

To be fair he points out the bottom rung schools

2/7/23 2:49pm

It's ok.

2/7/23 2:54pm

USN was part of it along with various other measurements

2/7/23 3:04pm

Most of his points are solid. Does he account for a scenario where 1 or 2 PAC 12

BlooCoog

2/7/23 2:49pm

The assumption is that if Stanford and/or Wash are gone

2/7/23 2:52pm

Yes. The Big 10 does seem to be done for now, especially with a new commish. But

BlooCoog

2/7/23 2:58pm

Mark Rogers and Tony Altimore are elitist clowns

runningryan

2/7/23 2:50pm

That was my thought as well, but I have no understanding of that

2/7/23 2:55pm

But is the networking really more to do with geography and AAU membership than conference affiliation?

runningryan

2/7/23 3:02pm

I think he overemphasizes academics and the impact of conference affiliation on research

krindorr

2/7/23 3:11pm

Correlation is not causation

runningryan

2/7/23 3:15pm

Honestly, I think you're correct. I think the PAC helped them get their sooner, but it was a point of emphasis even b4

krindorr

2/7/23 3:29pm

And that is a human, but realistic consideration

runningryan

2/7/23 3:40pm

Yup, I'm in agreement there. Bottom line, if the PAC football numbers are relati close, then they'd prefer to stay there

krindorr

2/7/23 3:43pm

Again, I'm not saying I agree with Altimore 100% here. Like I said, I think it's overstated

krindorr

2/7/23 3:42pm

Oh I agree, perception is more tangible than reality

runningryan

2/7/23 3:53pm

Honest question. You're clearly bothered by these claims. What are you hoping would happen?

TFL

2/7/23 6:06pm

The danger is that the PAC could be a threat to the Big 12

krindorr

2/7/23 6:29pm

Or maybe the competition between the two creates a compelling new element to the national discussion

TFL

2/8/23 12:09am

I have a personal beef with Tony

runningryan

2/7/23 10:12pm

They want Utah and the PAC to die. It’s not rocket science

Medute

2/7/23 10:17pm

Makes sense. Good take. Utah obviously isn't going anywhere regardless of what happens to the Pac-12 though.

TFL

2/8/23 12:13am

His type of arrogance is why the PAC 12 didn’t see losing USC and UCLA coming

TerpCoug

2/7/23 2:51pm

Excellent point. That’s why the PAC 12 could pursue Kansas and Tech.

2/7/23 2:52pm

It's odd that how much money you get for research is tied to your football team

2/7/23 2:53pm

Well research dollars don't pay for Athletic budgets. This is the type of

SnickSnack

2/7/23 2:56pm

Again remember that University Presidents are the ones making this decision, so things like

krindorr

2/7/23 3:04pm

Not closest thing to the Ivy League. Emphasis on "Poor Man's" Ivy League.

SnickSnack

2/7/23 3:36pm

Athletics build a school’s brand more than its research

runningryan

2/7/23 3:04pm

honest question: how does being in a conference like Big10 or Pac12 help a

CrashMcLarson

2/7/23 2:56pm

Answer: NO

runningryan

2/7/23 3:11pm

right but ive seen multiple places state being in those conf, increase research

CrashMcLarson

2/7/23 3:28pm

But it is it because of the athletic connection or the AAU relationship network?

runningryan

2/7/23 3:52pm

He is extremely smart, and well-informed. He is also a self-admitted Pac-12 snob who has bashed a large number of

Bob Vance

2/7/23 3:01pm

Dumb. UNM research $ has gone up at the same rate as CU and Utah. Nobody cares

jvquarterback

2/7/23 3:05pm

I think that’s a big consideration for AZ schools — OOS students

bruincoug

2/7/23 6:36pm

Arizona schools get 4x tuition for Texas residents compared to California.

jvquarterback

2/7/23 8:42pm

The Big 12 used to be the more academically rigorous conference vs. the SEC.

Baylorbears11

2/7/23 3:10pm

Very informative. The focus on research $ is understandable, but

2/7/23 3:26pm

If he's right, then there's no way SDSU or SMU are invited to the PAC.

Mitty

2/7/23 3:29pm

He hates BYU. Also said SDSU is ok academically for PAC 😄

Kral

2/7/23 4:15pm

He doesn't hate BYU. He makes a valid point about BYU's challenges...

Ushuaia

2/7/23 4:27pm

His presentation says BYU is not R1 because of fundamentalist notions about

TerpCoug

2/7/23 4:40pm

Not quite true.

Boring

2/7/23 7:53pm

“Not a serious research institution” = BYU refuses to be part of the leftist

TerpCoug

2/7/23 4:52pm

Not sure whether to roll my eyes or to laugh. So... 😎

Ushuaia

2/7/23 5:08pm

Feel free to do a bit of both. I just think a lot of these schools lie about

TerpCoug

2/7/23 5:41pm

I find it ironic he accuses BYU of not being legitimate because it has a religious filter when he himself sees the world

runningryan

2/7/23 5:24pm

Having been involved personally in "research" on Multiple Sclerosis at the UU I

BRATS

2/7/23 4:43pm

It’s this kind of thinking that got the pac where it is. The bottom

BYU '80

2/7/23 5:12pm

Tony determines his conclusion and backs his way into it by rationalization and cherry picking what data points he

runningryan

2/7/23 5:17pm

I'll agree with this; I think this board underestimates academic impact, but Altimore way overvalues it

krindorr

2/7/23 5:45pm

I think Academics is the tie breaker

runningryan

2/7/23 8:33pm

He's got a valid point

2/7/23 5:39pm

Bogus comparisons.

Les IsMore

2/7/23 5:44pm

Honest question: If an AAU PAC 12 team left, would they lose research $ & AAU?

RJCOD

2/7/23 9:49pm

Yes…100% yes. AAU is such a stupid club, they reward those who fall in line with

2/7/23 9:59pm

If true, could a former AAU school bring a lawsuit against the AAU?

RJCOD

2/7/23 10:13pm

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