Roko has a point - there also wasn't "wiggle room" with a lot of the statements

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May 17, 2018
3:37:08am

jaba166 Playmaker

Roko has a point - there also wasn't "wiggle room" with a lot of the statements

made by Brigham Young and other presidents about blacks, and many other topics. That is until time passed, society evolved, and then the statements are either re-interpreted or disavowed completely. Elder Oaks' statement is no more definitive than were some of Brigham Young's statements, and other presidents of the church.

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jaba166

Bio page: jaba166
Joined: Aug 20, 2010
Last login: Apr 25, 2024
Total posts: 3,875 (5 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

I feel as though the BYU to P5 ship has sailed for good.

LifelongAP

5/16/18 1:30pm

It might be that the current model changes in the future

Nat Gas Man

5/16/18 1:34pm

Things change and change quickly

kimdaddy35

5/16/18 1:35pm

The political landscape and perception of the church isn't changing anytime soon

franklyvulgar

5/16/18 1:42pm

Not sure I agree... while it may seem like that will be the case

kimdaddy35

5/16/18 1:48pm

Lots? An example?

Cougtruth

5/16/18 2:29pm

President Hinckley on 60 mins

kimdaddy35

5/16/18 2:39pm

True but the world and the LDS church have separated significantly more since

Yunit

5/17/18 7:52am

the church gave up all it's good will it had with Prop 8.

coolblue

5/17/18 10:58am

Church can do everything right but still won’t change certain groups views of us.

SlantRoute

5/17/18 9:11am

“Everything right” What does that mean?

Cougtruth

5/17/18 11:20am

I mean even if they do and say the right things

SlantRoute

5/17/18 6:19pm

Agreed. I really, REALLY doubt that any P5 commissioner has the guts to stand

BleedCougarBlue2

5/16/18 2:13pm

Is that like saying the SEC, etc. eventually didn’t have the guts to stand

Cougtruth

5/16/18 2:35pm

This is different

Pretorian

5/17/18 5:43am

Not really. . .

Demosthenes Red

5/17/18 9:25am

You realize that there are gay people on this board ya?

Michigan

5/16/18 3:11pm

yeah but are they pro-gay

rcbyufan

5/16/18 3:14pm

Me

Michigan

5/16/18 3:16pm

RE: Me

rcbyufan

5/16/18 3:23pm

There is a difference between wanting LGBT protections (actually very much

TailgateU

5/16/18 3:26pm

Yep. You nailed it.

BleedCougarBlue2

5/16/18 7:00pm

Wouldn’t you say that gays not being able to marry is being treated unfairly?

SlantRoute

5/17/18 9:13am

It really depends on how you view marriage. If marriage is a social agreement for two people to share a life (legally

SpecialT

5/17/18 9:56am

I guess non religious people shouldn’t get married then?

Michigan

5/17/18 11:27am

The point I see is are we talking about awarding lgbt with all the benefits that

Pretorian

5/17/18 12:21pm

Yes, we’re simply talking legal recognition of companionship trough marriage

SlantRoute

5/18/18 12:20pm

No, I'm saying we need to define marriage as a society and make decisions based on that definition. I think marriage and

SpecialT

5/17/18 12:25pm

<< Deleted >>

Cougtruth

5/17/18 11:02am

There's lots of things legal in all 50 states that aren't ok at BYU.

rcbyufan

5/17/18 11:07am

RE: Same sex marriage is legal in all 50 states. Is it OK at BYU?

Cougtruth

5/17/18 11:11am

That would not be acceptable. Men in cargo shorts would descend on that campus

rcbyufan

5/17/18 11:25am

I don't think he is criticizing gays but he is

5/16/18 3:27pm

Yep, you got it, too.

BleedCougarBlue2

5/16/18 7:00pm

What is the unfair characterization of BYU?

Cougtruth

5/17/18 11:22am

Do you think BYU shld be excluded from P5 based on their stance on homosexualit

Iman23

5/16/18 3:32pm

Absoutely not. Question: Do you think the pro-gay crowd (and when I say...

BleedCougarBlue2

5/16/18 7:08pm

So, to be clear. Someone who identifies as gay can enroll at BYU as long

Cougtruth

5/17/18 10:54am

^^^ding ding ding, we have a winner^^^

5/17/18 5:12am

It sailed back in 2011 I never took the recent chatter seriously

franklyvulgar

5/16/18 1:41pm

One thing that won't change: the social issues moving farther and farther

Dangerous

5/16/18 1:41pm

Yep that’s going to be the biggest risk to byu sports in the future imo

cougfanz

5/16/18 2:01pm

Another big risk is the health and concussion issues....the church could end it

Nat Gas Man

5/16/18 2:12pm

Disagree. Sure football is a risk, but so is crossing the street. Lot to be

BleedCougarBlue2

5/16/18 2:14pm

Except that crossing the street is necessary. Catching a leather ball is not.

Traveshamockery

5/16/18 9:14pm

I think some already are not scheduling us, we just get a different excuse

Iman23

5/16/18 4:49pm

We still have stand alone value more than half the P5 schools. There is that

jrifkin48

5/16/18 2:15pm

Damaged goods.

yorksama

5/16/18 2:22pm

It has sailed. If anything I only see contraction in the future.

mudpupper

5/16/18 2:40pm

The uncertainty that you mention may be the thing that changes in our favor.

TailgateU

5/16/18 3:10pm

My sure to be controversial take is that the church may eventually move into the

Roko's Basilisk

5/16/18 3:31pm

I think on this one you might be wrong. The church has been too definitive to

5/16/18 3:37pm

I remember two issues where the culture was committed to one

Archaea

5/16/18 5:29pm

If you review the history of social involvement and social issues

Archaea

5/16/18 5:27pm

The church would close down temples before that would happen.

Wear Blue

5/16/18 7:40pm

I have a different take: It doesn't matter to me

DazeofBlue

5/17/18 4:58pm

No way. LGBTQ and eternal families are not compatible..

idcougarfan

5/16/18 5:42pm

Under current understanding, but there is a lot more to understand.

Archaea

5/16/18 5:48pm

it takes a man and a woman to procreate. There is no way the church will

idcougarfan

5/16/18 8:35pm

I am not wise enough to know the entirety of the eternities

Archaea

5/17/18 10:03am

Yep.

BleedCougarBlue2

5/16/18 7:17pm

The LDS church accept gay temple marriage? Just who do u think runs the church?

BleedCougarBlue2

5/16/18 7:16pm

Um. Have you read the proclamation on the family?

Orem58thBall

5/16/18 9:25pm

Nobody knows the future. My only point is that we have a history of culture

Roko's Basilisk

5/16/18 9:56pm

Thank you for this post ⬆️

Michigan

5/16/18 10:47pm

This statement from then-Elder Oaks seems unambiguous (oct 2017)

HRCougar

5/16/18 11:45pm

Roko has a point - there also wasn't "wiggle room" with a lot of the statements

jaba166

5/17/18 3:37am

Huge, huge difference between Brigham Young’s statements

HRCougar

5/17/18 5:51am

The difference is that it was a small church then vs a large beurocracy now

jrj84105

5/17/18 8:41am

True.

Archaea

5/17/18 10:09am

Not sure I agree with that much

HRCougar

5/17/18 10:29am

Unbelievable. I'm amazed at the number high-minded Saints who point their noses

Ash

5/17/18 12:57pm

Overheated rhetoric like this makes it hard to have productive discussions.

Roko's Basilisk

5/17/18 1:41pm

It's not overheated. It's a poignant observation. I completely agree with you

Ash

5/17/18 1:55pm

I think our disagreement is around the authority and staying power of the

Roko's Basilisk

5/17/18 2:54pm

I do find the change in wording to be interesting.

5/17/18 4:53pm

Inference is a VERY powerful force in the church culture, involving anything

jaba166

5/17/18 11:00pm

“Assault” lol

Michigan

5/17/18 5:25pm

Now there's a thought that may deserve contemplation.

jaba166

5/17/18 10:54pm

What's your take on the Ten Suggestions?

CougarThug

5/16/18 10:51pm

Your take is definitely in the minority my brother. But please, don't base your

CObluezone

5/17/18 5:03am

The best thing to do is to remember the core belief of I am a son of God and any situation that gets between you and bec

nybyblue

5/17/18 5:42am

Let's play your game out

jollaksentie

5/17/18 6:26am

That is the day I will no longer believe in the church. The family unit is too

coolblue

5/17/18 6:38am

Lots of people have left, and will continue to leave, when the church makes -

Demosthenes Red

5/17/18 9:48am

Good point other than if a "continuing revelation" came that was contrary to

coolblue

5/17/18 11:17am

I think continuing revelation IS one of the core tenants of Mormonism. It's one of the Articles of Faith.

mvtoro

5/17/18 5:48pm

Coolblue, I appreciate your perspective, brother. Thanks for sharing.

Demosthenes Red

5/17/18 10:12pm

Sounds like your faith isn’t in the savior

Michigan

5/17/18 11:24am

That is a really stupid comment. I would still have faith in Christ. It's

coolblue

5/17/18 2:10pm

Sounds like you don’t have faith in the brethren then

Michigan

5/17/18 5:25pm

Well, in fairness, if it ever did happen you would need to get your own witness

Ash

5/17/18 12:59pm

Holding dear to false doctrines is where most of the world is today.

coolblue

5/17/18 2:15pm

The most basic fundamental core doctrine of eternal increase is agency, the

jaba166

5/17/18 11:23pm

Unbelievable, the number of high minded saints who would question the wisdom

jrj84105

5/18/18 4:51am

Because the brethren have never been off base before. For a

Michigan

5/18/18 9:15am

It’s true. We like to picture the brethren of the past and present as superheros

LifelongAP

5/18/18 4:17pm

Like arguing with my 10 year old. There's a semblance of truth yet the analogies

Ash

5/18/18 9:47am

"move into the mainstream" may be too strong

teancum

5/17/18 9:42am

Congrats, it only took 6 years to understand that BOT/AD screwed up in 2012.

blackshirts

5/16/18 3:37pm

I sometimes wonder if you're right.

5/16/18 3:46pm

You're absolutely right

reddead

5/16/18 4:00pm

And the thought of all that makes me want to vomit

5/16/18 4:14pm

I think this is exactly what happened.

Kingfisher

5/16/18 9:01pm

I think the BOT was confused. In 2010 they approved going independent and joining the WCC. They were sold that this was

SpiffCoug

5/16/18 10:02pm

I actually don't think it was the BOT...I think BYU screwed up after the MWC

Nat Gas Man

5/16/18 10:09pm

What smoke was there in 2010?

LifelongAP

5/17/18 12:19am

It's gone

5/16/18 3:44pm

The NCAA as it once was has sailed. It is becoming more political.

Refugee

5/16/18 4:14pm

I feel like this could all be beneficial to BYU.

Oranje

5/16/18 7:48pm

Winning fixes everything

Pretorian

5/16/18 8:32pm

^^This^^

Oranje

5/16/18 8:36pm

Kinda sad but USU will be P5 before US

CougarWildcat

5/16/18 9:56pm

Don't Worry

hms_ben

5/16/18 10:50pm

When the MWC gets elevated to Power Conference status.

Big Time 55

5/17/18 6:15am

exactly, and that happens right after the Browns have the MVP QB

Pretorian

5/17/18 8:27am

In the Celestial Kingdom, BYU-H will be a P5.

Cougtruth

5/17/18 11:36am

Cue the applause in Ogden.

CougarThug

5/16/18 10:59pm

As the population of Utah explodes

CougarWildcat

5/17/18 1:22pm

I believe that you are correct.

hms_ben

5/16/18 10:49pm

Where've you been?

Y4LYFE

5/17/18 8:22am

I believe if they were going to be in, they’d already be in

SlantRoute

5/17/18 9:10am

I thought that when the Big 12 decided not to expand

AxelDC

5/17/18 11:21am

Has somebody already said, “The situation is fluid.”?

UNHuskerCoug

5/17/18 11:36am

Like glass

AxelDC

5/17/18 12:35pm

I think it is likely that BYU makes it into the P5 ...

Rize Alloyal

5/17/18 11:51am

TCU ended up in the Big 12

AxelDC

5/17/18 12:37pm

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