one man's lack of academic freedom is another man's academic freedom

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Jan 15, 2021
11:10:37am

Littlerich All-American

one man's lack of academic freedom is another man's academic freedom

I was extremely well prepared to go to Med School coming out of BYU, in fact, I didn't study much at all for some of my basic science courses in med school because of the excellent education I received at BYU. I think one huge plus at BYU is being taught by Professors and not grad students in the upper level and lower level courses.

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Littlerich

Bio page: Littlerich
Joined: Apr 8, 2003
Last login: May 5, 2024
Total posts: 20,173 (966 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Do Members overstate the quality of a BYU education?

Fargo

1/15/21 11:04am

the harvard of the west?

BlueFrog

1/15/21 11:05am

Bang for the buck is really hard to beat. The business program, undergrad and

Incentivize

1/15/21 11:06am

I don’t see how any lack of academic freedom present on BYU’s campus has

garyfan

1/15/21 11:06am

Depends on how you define “quality.” If “quality” includes opening young

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:09am

The topics that are not presented at BYU because it’s BYU are completely

garyfan

1/15/21 11:12am

I can only go on my own experience. I studied humanities and philosophy

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:16am

Well there's no such thing as a "quality" humanities degree.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 11:29am

Whoa. Personal attack! I feel attacked!

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:31am

Business, nursing, engineering, etc. So many disciplines where this just

garyfan

1/15/21 11:33am

Here’s my point: a lot of people look at college as a time to learn “how” to

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:37am

I reject the premise that the topics that may be off-limits at BYU

garyfan

1/15/21 11:46am

For people who truly value critical thinking and open mindedness, all topics

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:40pm

That's why there's so much crushing debt. There should be some of that

fattycoug

1/15/21 7:55pm

What subjects were forbidden while you were there?

DMVCougar

1/15/21 1:52pm

99%+ of classes.

DMVCougar

1/15/21 1:52pm

And on top of that, I think Academic Freedom issues at BYU might be overblown

TerpCoug

1/15/21 11:10am

BYU has actual academic “freedom” issues, in the sense that there are ideas

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:14am

I see this as no different from all other universities.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 11:35am

Where would a tenured professor get fired for, say, challenging a student to

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:39am

Ive had those discussions with faculty as a BYU student...

1/15/21 11:45am

I don’t doubt it. But if a BYU prof openly challenged a students belief in god

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:42pm

Is challenging them to think about theism vs atheism the same as challenging

1/15/21 12:44pm

Sure. If a student comes in and says, I believe in god, and here’s why, a prof

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:47pm

What a bizarre lesson plan. Perhaps I was unclear, if an instructor needed to

1/15/21 1:05pm

I think I'm probably just not describing it well, but anyone who has studied at

Jay Rick

1/15/21 1:15pm

I am far from a trade school kind of guy

1/15/21 1:48pm

Depends on which assumptions are being challenged.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 11:45am

Source? I just don’t buy it. I believe there would be social and cultural

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:38pm

You really don't believe that in the current climate that if a tenured professor

MetaLearner

1/15/21 1:21pm

I don't know that story, but "forced to resign" is different from "fired."

Jay Rick

1/15/21 1:36pm

Forced to resign and fired are basically the same in this context.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 2:02pm

There are documented cases of professors being fired for challenging students on their woke ideas of gender and race

1/15/21 8:00pm

For many degrees I agree with you. But I suspect for some fields it very much

Fargo

1/15/21 12:56pm

Quality is also relative. What is the utility relative to the cost? Even in the

BlackBart

1/15/21 11:08am

Agree the value for cost is great. No argument there.

Fargo

1/15/21 12:58pm

To me its just an incredible value..

cougfanz

1/15/21 11:08am

I think the average BYU student is smarter than the average University student

BlueVU

1/15/21 11:08am

I split my undergrad between BYU and an Ivy League.. I always felt like the avg

cougfanz

1/15/21 11:10am

<< Deleted >>

cougsareforreal

1/15/21 11:27am

I think the average BYU grad is way over the average employee at my work.

cougsareforreal

1/15/21 11:27am

I think it is more that many credit the whole school with the value of the business or accounting programs.

Tokolosh

1/15/21 11:09am

I think there is definitely bias among members to overstate how good BYU is

Fargo

1/15/21 1:03pm

Can you respond to my reasonable request below?

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:05pm

I think you’re overestimating the rankings. The PhD candidates coming out

BYU'01

1/15/21 5:09pm

You could argue that many people overvalue a college education in general.

Cougar TD

1/15/21 11:09am

I think Members UNDERESTIMATE how hard it is to get into BYU.

TheLost

1/15/21 11:09am

Not nearly as much as CBers overstate the value of a Stanford education

1/15/21 11:09am

Lack of academic freedom is a myth. There is every bit as much academic freedom

gwalker

1/15/21 11:10am

That’s an interesting point

Odysseus

1/15/21 11:19am

BYU has it's own version of political correctness

run26

1/15/21 11:32am

Sure. But I saw that violated on many occasions even in the late 80s and

gwalker

1/15/21 11:57am

I think there is truth in this. Probably not as "unfree" as people think.

Fargo

1/15/21 1:04pm

<< Deleted >>

cvd6262

1/15/21 3:58pm

Buddy’s a professor for UT and he’s legally obligated to state that his favorite

BringYourUltimate

1/15/21 7:07pm

As it should be

WDaddy

1/15/21 7:52pm

Haha! I love it. I’m just saying there’s non-disparagement clauses within

BringYourUltimate

1/16/21 6:13am

one man's lack of academic freedom is another man's academic freedom

Littlerich

1/15/21 11:10am

"Lack of academic freedom" is a myth. I had more freedom to discuss actual

1/15/21 11:11am

BYU has little to no academic freedom on one particular subject (the church)

rcbyufan

1/15/21 11:14am

Sounds like someone didn't get accepted

nephicoug

1/15/21 11:14am

I'm a graduate thanks.

Fargo

1/15/21 1:05pm

Pull up the U.S. News and compare prices with schools in the Top 90. BYU has an

1/15/21 11:15am

Based on how many BYU grads go on to med school, law school, dental school, MBAs, PhDs, I'd say no. Elite launching pad.

1/15/21 11:16am

Members are achievers. They go to grad school at high rates, regardless of

DoseOfReality

1/15/21 12:09pm

Is it fair to ask your educational and professional background to assess your qualifications in making this judgement?

CLCougar

1/15/21 11:18am

I can honestly tell you the company I worked for got tired of BYU grads. Fortune

Fargo

1/15/21 1:08pm

Based where, if outside Utah?

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:16pm

Sounds the like BYU grads got tired of your company. En masse.

DMVCougar

1/15/21 2:25pm

What percentage of graduates are at the same company they started with 5 yrs

rcbyufan

1/15/21 3:34pm

I have none to answer your question. Just personal opinion based on limited

Fargo

1/15/21 1:09pm

Fair enough, thanks for answering. Others appear to have different experience during their careers, including me, as

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:18pm

Everywhere I’ve been, alumni of a school, and residents nearby, always have

1/15/21 11:18am

That's a sweeping generalization I don't agree with. Area of study should be factored. As example, someone

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:26pm

What is wrong with the age of faculty?

1/15/21 11:21am

Or was he referencing excess supply?

Odysseus

1/15/21 11:23am

Maybe if we had gone to an SEC school we could know for sure what is meant.

1/15/21 11:26am

I think you are looking at it wrong. What matters is the perception that

BPintheCouv

1/15/21 11:31am

See my post above. Good reputation for students but I've seen frustration.

Fargo

1/15/21 1:12pm

I thought that as a student, but after being in the workforce for 10+ years

cougarsnooty

1/15/21 11:36am

I would guess 95% of students don't care about academic "freedom".

ochobeeguy

1/15/21 11:45am

I think BYU's education is incredible simply because it's not a Research 1

newbie

1/15/21 11:47am

One of my former bosses got an MBA at Chicago. We compared notes and my

Nat Gas Man

1/15/21 12:10pm

I didn't go to BYU's law school, but I do remember talking to a college that

gwalker

1/15/21 12:22pm

Can you give some specific examples of lack of freedom at BYU affecting quality

Gustav

1/15/21 12:16pm

I don't really have any. Wouldn't have really noticed when I went there long ago

Fargo

1/15/21 1:14pm

Admittance to graduate programs and worth to employers is what counts. The admittance counselor to my Masters in Tax

hitechcpa

1/15/21 4:12pm

My education at BYU was mind expanding. Really prepared me well for law school.

DwigtA2RM

1/15/21 5:48pm

BYU undergrad and currently at Ivy grad school. I’d put any of my classmates at

4thand19

1/16/21 12:44am

I have some other thoughts on this.

MetaLearner

1/16/21 2:26pm

Also, I don't think BYU is trying to get above average faculty

MetaLearner

1/16/21 2:37pm

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