Here’s my point: a lot of people look at college as a time to learn “how” to

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Jan 15, 2021
11:37:12am

Jay Rick Intervention Needed

Here’s my point: a lot of people look at college as a time to learn “how” to

think, not a time to learn “what” to think.

I’ll analogize to law school. In law school, sure you learn some stuff about common law rules, and the UCC, etc. You learn what the laws say.

But far more importantly, you learn how to think like a lawyer. And the way you do that is by exploring ideas and challenging assumptions.

Many people think of undergrad the same way. It doesn’t just have to be a trade school. It can be a time to really expand your thinking and learn how to think differently.

If all you want is to learn math, that’s fine. And academic freedom probably won’t be relevant. But if you are interested in learning new ways to think, exploring new and controversial ideas, challenging assumptions, etc, academic freedom matters a lot.

This message has been modified

Originally posted on Jan 15, 2021 at 11:37:12am

Message modified by Jay Rick on Jan 15, 2021 at 11:41:07am

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Jay Rick

Previous username: jayriggity
Bio page: Jay Rick
Joined: Feb 10, 2013
Last login: May 4, 2024
Total posts: 28,122 (4,833 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Do Members overstate the quality of a BYU education?

Fargo

1/15/21 11:04am

the harvard of the west?

BlueFrog

1/15/21 11:05am

Bang for the buck is really hard to beat. The business program, undergrad and

Incentivize

1/15/21 11:06am

I don’t see how any lack of academic freedom present on BYU’s campus has

garyfan

1/15/21 11:06am

Depends on how you define “quality.” If “quality” includes opening young

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:09am

The topics that are not presented at BYU because it’s BYU are completely

garyfan

1/15/21 11:12am

I can only go on my own experience. I studied humanities and philosophy

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:16am

Well there's no such thing as a "quality" humanities degree.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 11:29am

Whoa. Personal attack! I feel attacked!

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:31am

Business, nursing, engineering, etc. So many disciplines where this just

garyfan

1/15/21 11:33am

Here’s my point: a lot of people look at college as a time to learn “how” to

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:37am

I reject the premise that the topics that may be off-limits at BYU

garyfan

1/15/21 11:46am

For people who truly value critical thinking and open mindedness, all topics

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:40pm

That's why there's so much crushing debt. There should be some of that

fattycoug

1/15/21 7:55pm

What subjects were forbidden while you were there?

DMVCougar

1/15/21 1:52pm

99%+ of classes.

DMVCougar

1/15/21 1:52pm

And on top of that, I think Academic Freedom issues at BYU might be overblown

TerpCoug

1/15/21 11:10am

BYU has actual academic “freedom” issues, in the sense that there are ideas

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:14am

I see this as no different from all other universities.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 11:35am

Where would a tenured professor get fired for, say, challenging a student to

Jay Rick

1/15/21 11:39am

Ive had those discussions with faculty as a BYU student...

1/15/21 11:45am

I don’t doubt it. But if a BYU prof openly challenged a students belief in god

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:42pm

Is challenging them to think about theism vs atheism the same as challenging

1/15/21 12:44pm

Sure. If a student comes in and says, I believe in god, and here’s why, a prof

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:47pm

What a bizarre lesson plan. Perhaps I was unclear, if an instructor needed to

1/15/21 1:05pm

I think I'm probably just not describing it well, but anyone who has studied at

Jay Rick

1/15/21 1:15pm

I am far from a trade school kind of guy

1/15/21 1:48pm

Depends on which assumptions are being challenged.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 11:45am

Source? I just don’t buy it. I believe there would be social and cultural

Jay Rick

1/15/21 12:38pm

You really don't believe that in the current climate that if a tenured professor

MetaLearner

1/15/21 1:21pm

I don't know that story, but "forced to resign" is different from "fired."

Jay Rick

1/15/21 1:36pm

Forced to resign and fired are basically the same in this context.

MetaLearner

1/15/21 2:02pm

There are documented cases of professors being fired for challenging students on their woke ideas of gender and race

1/15/21 8:00pm

For many degrees I agree with you. But I suspect for some fields it very much

Fargo

1/15/21 12:56pm

Quality is also relative. What is the utility relative to the cost? Even in the

BlackBart

1/15/21 11:08am

Agree the value for cost is great. No argument there.

Fargo

1/15/21 12:58pm

To me its just an incredible value..

cougfanz

1/15/21 11:08am

I think the average BYU student is smarter than the average University student

BlueVU

1/15/21 11:08am

I split my undergrad between BYU and an Ivy League.. I always felt like the avg

cougfanz

1/15/21 11:10am

<< Deleted >>

cougsareforreal

1/15/21 11:27am

I think the average BYU grad is way over the average employee at my work.

cougsareforreal

1/15/21 11:27am

I think it is more that many credit the whole school with the value of the business or accounting programs.

Tokolosh

1/15/21 11:09am

I think there is definitely bias among members to overstate how good BYU is

Fargo

1/15/21 1:03pm

Can you respond to my reasonable request below?

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:05pm

I think you’re overestimating the rankings. The PhD candidates coming out

BYU'01

1/15/21 5:09pm

You could argue that many people overvalue a college education in general.

Cougar TD

1/15/21 11:09am

I think Members UNDERESTIMATE how hard it is to get into BYU.

TheLost

1/15/21 11:09am

Not nearly as much as CBers overstate the value of a Stanford education

1/15/21 11:09am

Lack of academic freedom is a myth. There is every bit as much academic freedom

gwalker

1/15/21 11:10am

That’s an interesting point

Odysseus

1/15/21 11:19am

BYU has it's own version of political correctness

run26

1/15/21 11:32am

Sure. But I saw that violated on many occasions even in the late 80s and

gwalker

1/15/21 11:57am

I think there is truth in this. Probably not as "unfree" as people think.

Fargo

1/15/21 1:04pm

<< Deleted >>

cvd6262

1/15/21 3:58pm

Buddy’s a professor for UT and he’s legally obligated to state that his favorite

BringYourUltimate

1/15/21 7:07pm

As it should be

WDaddy

1/15/21 7:52pm

Haha! I love it. I’m just saying there’s non-disparagement clauses within

BringYourUltimate

1/16/21 6:13am

one man's lack of academic freedom is another man's academic freedom

Littlerich

1/15/21 11:10am

"Lack of academic freedom" is a myth. I had more freedom to discuss actual

1/15/21 11:11am

BYU has little to no academic freedom on one particular subject (the church)

rcbyufan

1/15/21 11:14am

Sounds like someone didn't get accepted

nephicoug

1/15/21 11:14am

I'm a graduate thanks.

Fargo

1/15/21 1:05pm

Pull up the U.S. News and compare prices with schools in the Top 90. BYU has an

1/15/21 11:15am

Based on how many BYU grads go on to med school, law school, dental school, MBAs, PhDs, I'd say no. Elite launching pad.

1/15/21 11:16am

Members are achievers. They go to grad school at high rates, regardless of

DoseOfReality

1/15/21 12:09pm

Is it fair to ask your educational and professional background to assess your qualifications in making this judgement?

CLCougar

1/15/21 11:18am

I can honestly tell you the company I worked for got tired of BYU grads. Fortune

Fargo

1/15/21 1:08pm

Based where, if outside Utah?

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:16pm

Sounds the like BYU grads got tired of your company. En masse.

DMVCougar

1/15/21 2:25pm

What percentage of graduates are at the same company they started with 5 yrs

rcbyufan

1/15/21 3:34pm

I have none to answer your question. Just personal opinion based on limited

Fargo

1/15/21 1:09pm

Fair enough, thanks for answering. Others appear to have different experience during their careers, including me, as

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:18pm

Everywhere I’ve been, alumni of a school, and residents nearby, always have

1/15/21 11:18am

That's a sweeping generalization I don't agree with. Area of study should be factored. As example, someone

CLCougar

1/15/21 1:26pm

What is wrong with the age of faculty?

1/15/21 11:21am

Or was he referencing excess supply?

Odysseus

1/15/21 11:23am

Maybe if we had gone to an SEC school we could know for sure what is meant.

1/15/21 11:26am

I think you are looking at it wrong. What matters is the perception that

BPintheCouv

1/15/21 11:31am

See my post above. Good reputation for students but I've seen frustration.

Fargo

1/15/21 1:12pm

I thought that as a student, but after being in the workforce for 10+ years

cougarsnooty

1/15/21 11:36am

I would guess 95% of students don't care about academic "freedom".

ochobeeguy

1/15/21 11:45am

I think BYU's education is incredible simply because it's not a Research 1

newbie

1/15/21 11:47am

One of my former bosses got an MBA at Chicago. We compared notes and my

Nat Gas Man

1/15/21 12:10pm

I didn't go to BYU's law school, but I do remember talking to a college that

gwalker

1/15/21 12:22pm

Can you give some specific examples of lack of freedom at BYU affecting quality

Gustav

1/15/21 12:16pm

I don't really have any. Wouldn't have really noticed when I went there long ago

Fargo

1/15/21 1:14pm

Admittance to graduate programs and worth to employers is what counts. The admittance counselor to my Masters in Tax

hitechcpa

1/15/21 4:12pm

My education at BYU was mind expanding. Really prepared me well for law school.

DwigtA2RM

1/15/21 5:48pm

BYU undergrad and currently at Ivy grad school. I’d put any of my classmates at

4thand19

1/16/21 12:44am

I have some other thoughts on this.

MetaLearner

1/16/21 2:26pm

Also, I don't think BYU is trying to get above average faculty

MetaLearner

1/16/21 2:37pm

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