Well, if anyone would know about discriminatory policies at a university

Oct 7, 2015
1:00:01pm

BeardedSpock

it would be a professor from UCSB. Their record on free speech and academic freedom issues can be charitably described as abysmal:

https://www.thefire.org/?s=University+of+California+Santa+Barbara

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BeardedSpock

Bio page: BeardedSpock
Joined: Oct 10, 2013
Last login: Nov 29, 2023
Total posts: 5,791 (0 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

A black eye on BYU?

newbie

10/7/15 9:07am

Yes. I believe it's been discussed a few times on here in the past.

benny1982

10/7/15 9:10am

Or it could be a situation where, since we only ever hear one side of the

benny1982

10/7/15 9:12am

It is the policy. It's right there in the honor code

DapperDan

10/7/15 9:47am

it's not true, remember Luke Ashworth left the church and still stayed at BYU

JONBOY

10/7/15 9:10am

it is true, but exceptions can be made

cougarmanguy

10/7/15 9:14am

Doesn't hurt to be a starter on the football team

Saxa

10/7/15 10:32am

Ashworth made his change well before becoming a starter.

NewMexiCoug

10/7/15 9:03pm

RE: it's not true, remember Luke Ashworth left the church and still stayed at

foofcoug

10/7/15 9:14am

I'd be curious to know how the exceptions to endorsement process works

Mems

10/7/15 9:24am

Did he "disaffiliate" or just go less active? Maybe there is a difference there

blueaussie

10/7/15 9:18am

He became a born-again christian

10/7/15 10:09am

Yea I just kind of wondered if maybe it didn't become official til after he left

blueaussie

10/7/15 12:17pm

RE: He became a born-again christian

TaiJuan

10/7/15 12:24pm

Ao disadfiliation is having your name removed from the records of the church.

blueaussie

10/7/15 12:56pm

He joined another church. You can petition to stay.

gwalker

10/7/15 10:10am

I don't know if expel is the right word, but you are no longer in good standing

Baron

10/7/15 9:13am

That makes no sense

southernfriedcougar

10/7/15 9:19am

It's so ironic how often the HC HIGHLY incentivizes students to be dishonest.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 9:31am

I don't get the idea that BYU is violating someone's "religious liberty" by not

hansel

10/7/15 9:14am

They can go elsewhere. They don't have to go to BYU.

foofcoug

10/7/15 9:21am

Isn't it taught that they should be loving and welcoming to everyone?

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:30am

This is different. The symposium relates to religious freedoms. BYU's policy

Baron

10/7/15 9:22am

And that's not an unreasonable conclusion. The other side is that religous

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:27am

He's not talking about the principle of religious freedom generally. If he

hansel

10/7/15 9:27am

The policy isn't limiting their right to express or practice religious freedom

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 5:37am

And what if they still agree to abide by the honor code?

Ygirl

10/8/15 8:46am

"These aren't anti Mormons were talking about."

TaiJuan

10/8/15 8:52am

My thoughts exactly

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 7:50pm

But these are people already attending BYU and having that taken away for a

DoseOfReality

10/7/15 9:24am

No doubt there is more to the story, but I doubt the Trib searched too hard, b/c

Iman23

10/7/15 9:17am

I find that illogical, it is discrimination against LDS members. A Catholic at

DoseOfReality

10/7/15 9:21am

There is no equal protection argument here. You might not like how it looks, but

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:24am

There is much latitude afforded to religious schools, but it is not limitless.

DoseOfReality

10/7/15 9:29am

If you want to wade in here with some conclusions, I would like to see the cases

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:31am

Religious institutions can discriminate on a religious basis. It's fundamental.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:31am

Agree, but public opinion does matter to the reputation of the institution

zuxvon

10/7/15 11:30am

They charge different faiths different tuition rates, looks legal to me.

Mems

10/7/15 9:36am

You do realize that the equal protection guarantees in the Constitution

jbcoug

10/7/15 9:38am

it's not a legal issue

cougarmanguy

10/7/15 9:24am

I think it has to depend on the circumstances. There are certainly situations

Bob Vance

10/7/15 9:28am

But the church knew that going in with the Catholic.

Coach's Dad

10/7/15 9:54am

Here's an old thread on the same issue.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:22am

Well, there is no question that their tuition should have to go up

Bob Vance

10/7/15 9:26am

Expelling a student for sedition is very different than for religious reasons.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 9:35am

Sedition is the only way to fight against the school?

Bob Vance

10/7/15 9:40am

So...you agree with me? Your tone says you don't, your words say you do.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 9:44am

Funny, I misunderstood the tone of your comment. Looks like same page.

Bob Vance

10/7/15 10:48am

I think I tried to agree and add to your comment in 80 characters. Not easy.

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 11:20am

Definitely depends on the circumstances - that's why the rule should focus on

jayriggity

10/7/15 9:53am

I completely agree. And don't see anything wrong with raising tuition for anyone

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:19am

BYU has the right to do it. But it's a dumb policy.

Jeremy

10/7/15 9:33am

I think this is probably the right answer. Faith crises aren't easy for anyone

Iman23

10/7/15 9:36am

From the church's view, wouldn't they want to keep students who are questioning

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:27am

Questioning faith is not usually the same as removing a name from the records.

TaiJuan

10/8/15 9:45am

Also, I don't claim to be LDS anymore but BYU is a great school I considered

Ygirl

10/8/15 9:28am

What if someone comes in as a non-member, joins the Church

argla

10/7/15 9:33am

If they voluntarily disaffiliate, they lose honor code standing.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:36am

True but I think the point is, it shouldn't be grounds for loss of standing

Iman23

10/7/15 9:37am

I don't know that I fully agree

cougarmanguy

10/7/15 9:55am

It looks bad. Put yourself on the outside looking in. It makes it seem that BYU

pink22

10/7/15 9:44am

I think your last sentence outlines what I think as well.

Turnpike Lane

10/7/15 9:56am

How do you determine whether they are doing that or going to do that though?

Coach's Dad

10/7/15 9:58am

they still have to receive an ecclesiastical endorsement

10/7/15 10:18am

The same way it's done now

pink22

10/7/15 10:31am

My policy thoughts, if I were in charge...

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:56am

The problem is that anyone who takes an affirmative step to remove their name

TaiJuan

10/7/15 9:59am

I agree. It is a practical matter as well. Otherwise everything is shades of

AF Cougar

10/7/15 10:16am

As long as students get fair chance to stay I would be fine with it. I don't

Baron

10/7/15 10:02am

Basically, the student moves to being under a microscope. I can't imagine it's

TaiJuan

10/7/15 10:05am

I think the difference is automatic expulsion with a chance to be exempt versus

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 5:43am

Why does the disassociated kid have different "expressive" restrictions than

jayriggity

10/7/15 10:06am

You are demonstrating why the policy works as it currently does.

TaiJuan

10/7/15 10:09am

I guess I don't get it. How?

jayriggity

10/7/15 10:19am

Should John Dehlin be allowed to remain at BYU if he were a student at the time

TaiJuan

10/7/15 10:24am

Maybe? IDK. I'm just exploring the ideas. Do you think that a catholic with exac

jayriggity

10/7/15 11:01am

I don't think the issue is discussing it with roomates in a private setting

morningcalmcougar

10/8/15 5:49am

Not sure why people think it is a dumb policy...there is a difference of

Fdnman

10/7/15 10:06am

It's an awful big decision to a believing member of the Church. I've been

Byron McNertney

10/7/15 10:17am

I knew a few who left the church and weren't kicked out. And some that were. My

rcbyufan

10/7/15 10:14am

Very much true. And probably a dumb rule. Should be changed.

Real Men Wear Blue

10/7/15 10:59am

Well, if anyone would know about discriminatory policies at a university

BeardedSpock

10/7/15 1:00pm

It's not just a matter of membership. It's about breaking covenants.

panguitch

10/8/15 12:23pm

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