An ecclesiastical leader has no authority to make decision about a students

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Jul 12, 2018
8:01:36am

TheLoneCougar Starter

An ecclesiastical leader has no authority to make decision about a students

attendance at the University and without the HC Office they are not supposed to divulge another person's sin.

I think BYU is smart in at least having the HC office. How many students would refrain from speaking with their bishops about sin if they knew he was just going to get them expelled. The HC office takes the brunt of criticism so that ecclesiastical leaders can remain neutral and trustworthy. There needs to be separation.

This message has been modified

Originally posted on Jul 12, 2018 at 8:01:36am

Message modified by TheLoneCougar on Jul 12, 2018 at 8:03:40am

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TheLoneCougar

Bio page: TheLoneCougar
Joined: Dec 10, 2015
Last login: Apr 26, 2024
Total posts: 21,447 (4,114 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

BYU Football and the Honor Code Office - For what it is worth.

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/11/18 1:21pm

I would be curious to see where the percentages of violations lie. Anyone have a guess on

Zedhead

7/11/18 1:29pm

beards

7/11/18 1:49pm

Not even close! X - Family feud. Good guess.

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/11/18 1:52pm

From my friend it is the most common things we would think: Drinking, drugs, and

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/11/18 1:51pm

Which is why we have Rambo hiding in the bushes with a camera.

panguitch

7/11/18 6:01pm

Did you mean the Salt Lake Tribune?

WJCougar

7/12/18 3:39pm

This does not make sense.

tmurphey44

7/11/18 9:30pm

I didn't not say that they only punish the kids when things are public. Way to

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/11/18 11:21pm

That's just reality tho. It's not wrong. Actions sometimes have far reaching

MormonThug

7/12/18 6:55am

It's not selective enforcement, it's selective punishment. The church does the exact same thing with

Radioactive Coug

7/12/18 10:24am

Whether it's selective punishment or enforcement...

tmurphey44

7/12/18 12:58pm

Obviously it appears you have no idea. The Church is not at all about saving

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/12/18 1:59pm

Not true the Church and BYU are extremly imgage conscious

kahuna

7/12/18 2:18pm

Radio, it is not selective punishment, having sat on many councils. The

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/12/18 1:08pm

As have I and I stand by my wording, unless you are talking about the BYU side.

Radioactive Coug

7/12/18 2:19pm

whoa, there's a leap

ArchbishopMitty

7/12/18 3:16pm

You're wrong - that's not the definition of hypocrisy. The definition is

MajorPain

7/12/18 3:24pm

So many people throw that word around when it doesn't apply...

ArchbishopMitty

7/12/18 6:03pm

So let's use your definition here:

tmurphey44

7/13/18 7:45am

LOL, that's like saying, since you believe killing people is wrong, you are a hypocrite if

Radioactive Coug

7/13/18 8:05am

That's a good point.

tmurphey44

7/13/18 10:29am

That's not at all what I was saying. While it may be true that protecting my family is more important than not

Radioactive Coug

7/13/18 12:35pm

Your argument is completely theoretically

tmurphey44

7/15/18 7:03am

So, would you be OK if it was a mandatory 1 year pregnant or not?

Radioactive Coug

7/16/18 2:20pm

Yes. It wouldn't be how I personally

tmurphey44

7/18/18 7:17am

Well of course they wouldn't say anything negative about their own office.

7/11/18 1:54pm

The HC office is not trying to protect itself and does all that it can to help

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/11/18 11:24pm

His point is that your friend is drinking his own Koolaid. Of course he isn't

Yunit

7/12/18 8:26am

Does the honor code only apply when on campus/enrolled?

stealth

7/11/18 1:58pm

I think it applies to all students while enrolled @ BYU, not sure off campus?

GlasairCoug

7/11/18 2:09pm

Definitely applies off campus too

Odysseus

7/11/18 2:18pm

And this is a major fault and shortcoming.

Archaea

7/12/18 10:46am

Does this change if they start paying players and players become employees?

SUAVO

7/12/18 11:16am

Not sure, but not automatically. I know

Archaea

7/12/18 1:31pm

They are now expected to follow the HC 24/7 wherever they are. My wife is

Monomachos

7/12/18 2:37pm

Dumb rule.

Archaea

7/12/18 5:51pm

There is more and it has been discussed here many times. BYU is only hiring

Monomachos

7/12/18 7:21pm

Every student needs to fill out the 'Student Ecclesiastical Endorsement'

TheLost

7/11/18 2:28pm

That's all beside the point, IMO. The Honor Code Office needs to go.

SoCalCoug

7/11/18 2:25pm

Honest question: how would this work with kids who aren’t church members?

Croweater

7/12/18 6:15am

Same way it currently works. With their ecclesiastical leader. They have to

Yunit

7/12/18 8:27am

That puts way too much, and the wrong responsibilities on bishops

Big Papi

7/12/18 8:35am

Why does it need to go? The ecclesiastical endorsement is a condition of

vaquero

7/12/18 9:07am

Doesn't the ecclesiastical endorsement have to be renewed every year though?

Yunit

7/13/18 7:19am

Wow, what's with the liberals newfound interest in dismantling agencies/offices?

Iman23

7/12/18 12:42pm

As long as BYU is Church owned and subsidized,

semolinaPilchard

7/11/18 2:39pm

The ecclesiastical endorsement already sets it apart as a church school.

SoCalCoug

7/11/18 2:44pm

Inconsistently implemented. It leaves authority to individuals off campus

WhiteKnight

7/11/18 2:46pm

Ecclesiastical leaders for the church that owns the University.

SoCalCoug

7/11/18 3:00pm

I have a hard time believing you would be happy with the results when Bishops

Lance71

7/11/18 6:59pm

God would smite them down in a flash if they did that

7/11/18 7:09pm

In Provo?

AntiSNOT

7/12/18 7:02am

An ecclesiastical leader has no authority to make decision about a students

TheLoneCougar

7/12/18 8:01am

Do you believe the university has standing to assess a student's moral standing?

SoCalCoug

7/12/18 12:19pm

Probably depends on the situation. But bottom line:

TheLoneCougar

7/12/18 12:35pm

Bishops are Judges in Israel. Let them judge.

SoCalCoug

7/12/18 12:47pm

The are spiritual judges. A person's education and schooling should not be part

TheLoneCougar

7/13/18 7:28am

But the students' adherence to church moral principles and commandments should

SoCalCoug

7/13/18 11:56am

I'm not sure the school is making such a judgement

dratax

7/13/18 12:14pm

Exactly my point. Bishops are judges in Israel over the spiritual lives of their

TheLoneCougar

7/13/18 12:24pm

On the other hand

dratax

7/13/18 3:33pm

Bad Idea, the results would vary drastically and even more people would be

Ghost

7/12/18 9:41am

Who is entitled to the spirit of discernment to determine whether a person is

SoCalCoug

7/12/18 12:22pm

Trust Bishops with the decision to determine eligibility? That's insane.

Lance71

7/12/18 5:28pm

As opposed to a bunch people in the HCO?

Archaea

7/12/18 5:52pm

A bunch of people is totally inaccurate. There is a small committee in charge.

Lance71

7/12/18 9:40pm

See answer below.

Archaea

7/15/18 6:19pm

"Those guys" who are ordained as judges in Israel, with the authority to

SoCalCoug

7/13/18 11:57am

Some important points to consider:

GlasairCoug

7/11/18 3:47pm

regarding governing themselves

dratax

7/11/18 4:34pm

Were they then kicked out of school?

FanofBYU

7/12/18 5:16pm

That doesn’t explain RMs like Ula

Coogar2

7/11/18 6:43pm

Players dig their own hole.. Stop blaming the HC

TheLost

7/11/18 7:06pm

Everything you said here is exactly right. Joe, Ula, and Francis were given

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/11/18 11:27pm

I agree

Coogar2

7/12/18 7:05am

It explains it all. Frequency, attitude, degree of penitence. He didn't

PhilPete

7/12/18 9:22am

I was brief. The position that a play enters BYU as a HS stud not

Coogar2

7/12/18 11:03am

Agee 187%

PhilPete

7/12/18 1:59pm

Those questions don't seem to line up with Brandon Davies situation.

7/12/18 8:53am

How widespread is it, or how many people know about it?

Coug

7/12/18 9:15am

The point is that BYU tries to handle everything through BYU. If a student has

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/12/18 2:04pm

It's a factor in the equation, not the deciding factor, but a factor.

MormonThug

7/12/18 10:10pm

The primary reason why CB hates on the HC office is because of sports.

Machiavelli

7/12/18 9:25am

You say that like it's a bad thing. 🙂

7/12/18 9:41am

I have close contacts who were kicked out of BYU by the HC office who were not

maxpowers

7/12/18 10:07am

That's like saying you hate the police because they gave your friend a ticket

Machiavelli

7/12/18 10:26am

You'd be crazy to think they haven't ever made some poor decisions.

7/12/18 10:31am

Yeah of course they've made some bad decisions.

Machiavelli

7/12/18 11:46am

Student or Athlete... You sign the Honor Code contract before you attend.

TheLost

7/12/18 10:35am

Consequences are extremely subjective. Largely based on the bishop. Same mistake

maxpowers

7/12/18 10:45am

I 100% agree... but that issue is larger than just BYU

TheLost

7/12/18 10:54am

As a parent of two BYU students, this is how the HC seems to work...

TheLost

7/12/18 10:52am

I'd guess a good chunk of the time they might feel guilty

JuicyJam

7/12/18 12:32pm

Actually the HC office has too many jerks irrespective of sports.

Coogar2

7/12/18 11:03am

I dont know the HC Office employees personally

Machiavelli

7/12/18 11:50am

People wouldn't like it even if it didn't effect sports at all.

JuicyJam

7/12/18 12:28pm

Then they should probably not attend BYU.

Machiavelli

7/12/18 1:25pm

There are too many horror stories about how the HCO has delt with people.

JuicyJam

7/12/18 1:40pm

I was at BYU for 4 years (fairly recently) and no one within my social circle

Machiavelli

7/12/18 8:39pm

Cool. I and lots of other people did.

JuicyJam

7/12/18 9:30pm

Not much!

dodgersjazzcougs

7/12/18 10:43am

The HCO should not exist for social guideline violations, and this sentence

Archaea

7/12/18 10:45am

What bothers me about that sentence is:

dratax

7/12/18 10:52am

$$$

TheLost

7/12/18 11:07am

You took my post seriously? I need to be more over the top in the future

dratax

7/12/18 12:03pm

Irony is tricky on CB 🙂

TheLost

7/12/18 12:45pm

Right, but when summer violations cause them to lose ecclesiastical endorsement

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/12/18 2:06pm

If you are a non-member, I doubt you're going to lose your ecclesiastical

Archaea

7/12/18 5:50pm

Did you know that as a non-member you still need to have an endorsement?

BYU I Bleed Blue

7/12/18 9:15pm

That's super interesting that someone working at the HC office feels that way

fatcracker

7/12/18 12:06pm

Good summary. BYU does what it can to help students/athletes, but sometimes

ArchbishopMitty

7/12/18 3:11pm

So tired of all the honor code whining

MajorPain

7/12/18 3:33pm

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