then leads to people pointing out that Rose's record isn't as stellar as the first person is making it out to be.

I dont mind responses like that. The ones I am referring to are brought up in the middle of basketball season and is completely about Bronco.

The basketball program seems to be heading in the wrong direction to me. And until it's been proven on the court/field, I don't put much stock in a recruiting class. Bronco had a top 25 recruiting class once, too, and we know how that turned out.

Recruiting in basketball is light years ahead of where it is in football. They see these kids play all summer long in AAU tournament against all levels of competition. You dont have anything like that in football. You are welcome to your opinion that recruiting is a crap shoot but I need more evidence than Bronco had a top 25 class once and the star players were not good.

Dave Rose had Jimmer who put on a show for a couple of seasons (once Rose finally let him). Other than that, it's been middling basketball. I don't see that changing this season as we will certainly lack inside scoring and have very little depth at the guard positions.

Pure ignorance right here. Dave Rose had won two conference title before Jimmer even got a start (he wasnt that good as a freshman and started as a sophomore). Last year we had crap depth inside. We have every guard back from last year minus a cancer plus we add Fischer and Toolson. The guards will be fine. I also dont think it is certain we will lack inside scoring once Aytes is eligible but we will see.

It's also comparing apples and oranges. Our defense has become pretty sad, but it's not like there's a DC in basketball to whine about. Or when we can't score when Haws is covered, it's not like there's an OC to whine about. If there were, people would be whining about them, no doubt.

Yeah no one has ever complained about Terry Nashif before. Particularly when he was in charge of the bigs.

It's mostly about expectations. Lavell had an amazing 6 year stretch once, and expectations for football have been through the roof ever since. For basketball, meh, so long as we're mostly making the NCAA tournament, even though we hardly ever win a game, we're cool. As long as we're slightly better than mediocre in basketball, we're cool. That doesn't cut it in football. And no, I don't count simply making the field of 68 teams as equivalent to fielding a top 25 football program.

It is really about being in the top 40 to make the NCAA tournament. There is an extra 15 slots but there is also 3 times the number of teams.

Aside from Carlino who was eventually benched and has now transferred, when's the last non-LDS basketball player who actually starred for BYU? Not a bench player, but an actual starting, significant contributor. It's not like Rose has gone out and snagged a Jamaal Williams, Jordan Leslie, Brian Logan, or even a Mike Reed. His top 25 recruiting classes have been mostly LDS kids. Bronco doesn't have that luxury. He's gotta convince a higher percentage of non-LDS kids to come here if he wants a top program. Lavell understood that. Bronco has come around to understanding that, but a little too late.

Keena Young? Conference player of the year. Excluding the most recent example is kind of silly. Keena is not that recent but he was a contemporary with one of your selectionsBronco has missed on plenty of LDS kids that were highly recruited. I dont care if the are LDS or not.