Given that athletics and research have little to do with each other it is rather

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Jun 24, 2021
2:52:46pm

Monomachos All-American

Given that athletics and research have little to do with each other it is rather

strange that college conferences try to make a big deal of it. If they really cared about the reputation of their universities, they would crow about academic rankings, which is more important in the academic world, and which do consider research as one factor. Latest Rankings of National Universities:

# 6 - Stanford
# 20 - UCLA
# 22 - UC Berkeley
# 58 - UW

# 80 - BYU

# 97 (tie) - Utah
# 97 (tie) - Arizona
# 103 (tie) - Colorado
# 103 (tie) - Oregon
# 153 - Oregon State
# 176 - Washington State

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities

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Monomachos

Previous username: zordan
Bio page: Monomachos
Joined: Jul 9, 2007
Last login: May 5, 2024
Total posts: 32,149 (666 FO)

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Messages

Author

Time

Which school(s) in Pac12 are not research institutions like BYU?

6/24/21 1:52pm

All the P-12 Schools are R1 research Universities. BYU is R2 I think?

NarfUte

6/24/21 1:55pm

Then how can we claim its about religion??

6/24/21 2:02pm

Pullman, Washington. The Harvard of the West.

Iman23

6/24/21 2:04pm

You joke, but WSU has $357M in annual research expenditures. BYU has $45M.

AggieWeekendCougar

6/24/21 2:23pm

Pullman itself is a dump but WSU is a good school, especially for Ag

NarfUte

6/24/21 2:25pm

Maybe, only for Ag. Otherwise? Not so much.

Monomachos

6/24/21 2:29pm

WSU Engineering has 67% as much research expenditures as the whole of BYU

AggieWeekendCougar

6/24/21 2:44pm

See Rankings list in my other post below. Considering

Monomachos

6/24/21 4:42pm

WSU > BYU Yes, it's that simple.

Stev_ie

6/25/21 2:45am

It’s the lowest ranked PAC-12 school and #186 overall. Only one or two P5

6/24/21 2:42pm

You're only looking at undergrad, which is just a small part of what the

Scratch

6/25/21 9:09am

Except MBA, MPA and JD programs where BYU exceeds WSU.

Forzaitalia

6/25/21 4:37pm

What does it say when a school is top-70 in research spending and only top-200

6/24/21 2:45pm

That it takes its land-grant mission seriously while still being a major

AggieWeekendCougar

6/24/21 2:56pm

Are you just talking undergrad ranking or total university ranking?

Scratch

6/24/21 11:36pm

Because it is 100% the truth.

BYUtka

6/24/21 2:07pm

U til byu b2comes a tier1 we will nevwr know or until pac invutes

6/24/21 3:17pm

Does any school have restrictions/demands like BYU does?

Z-Ute

6/24/21 4:36pm

Have you heard of cancel culture? “Micro aggressions” these other universities

Pretorian

6/25/21 7:49am

Consequences exist for your actions 🤷

Hotlanta

6/25/21 11:21am

That is exactly correct

Pretorian

6/25/21 11:30am

What am I missing hotlanta & krindor?

Pretorian

6/25/21 11:45am

Just eye-rolling at the sermonizing

krindorr

6/25/21 2:14pm

Yes, You are correct I was generalizing..

Pretorian

6/25/21 2:27pm

And this is why I eye-roll

krindorr

6/25/21 3:06pm

So if it isn’t on google it didn’t exist?

Pretorian

6/27/21 2:22pm

If you believe every source has covered it up, that raises a few issues

krindorr

6/27/21 6:54pm

It sounds like you still want to argue while saying the same thing?

Pretorian

6/28/21 9:15am

No, I did appreciate your acknowledgement

krindorr

6/28/21 10:19am

yes, it's called "woke culture" and it's at nearly every public and private ...

icecougar

6/25/21 10:48am

RE: Because it is 100% the truth.

jimmything

6/24/21 10:45pm

And back when they invited Utah they were trying to invite some BIG12 teams

DiamondMo

6/24/21 2:07pm

Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State are all R1.

The Chelsea Dagger

6/24/21 2:24pm

Texas in the past few years has gone from only two, to nine. It's an emphasis.

EtTuKalante

6/24/21 2:32pm

I’m just going off of memory that there was some sort of double standard

DiamondMo

6/24/21 2:44pm

Oklahoma State was granted Tier 1 status in 2019, so well after PAC expansion.

NewMexiCoug

6/24/21 3:04pm

In 2011 Texas Tech and OK State were not Tier 1 research schools but the PAC was

NewMexiCoug

6/24/21 2:55pm

<< Deleted >>

Everyman

6/24/21 2:26pm

Because forming an athletic conference based on research dollars is silly

KingDave

6/24/21 2:12pm

As you correctly point out, it is one of many aspects of a potential candidate

Everyman

6/24/21 2:29pm

I've long thought that ASU, OSU, and WSU are a better fit for the MWC

Doogal McCougar

6/24/21 3:33pm

So how much do research, enrollment, reputation, history, on-field performance,

Forzaitalia

6/24/21 6:58pm

I would guess that most presidents view athletics as a marketing tool

Everyman

6/24/21 9:49pm

Yes. Here are the R&D expenditures.

Everyman

6/24/21 2:20pm

Univ of Utah just recently joined the AAU in 2019...

icecougar

6/25/21 11:21am

were all current Pac12 members R1 Research Institutions when they joined?

icecougar

6/24/21 3:08pm

Carnegie did not begin publishing its classification until 1973.

Everyman

6/24/21 4:17pm

I remember reading once upon a time that BYU not being a member of the AAU was..

icecougar

6/25/21 10:40am

It's not an absolute requirement, but highly preferred

krindorr

6/25/21 10:51am

The University of Utah wasn't accepted into the AAU until 2019

icecougar

6/25/21 10:58am

Good catch; I'd guess they didn't love Utah's academics then, but at least R1

krindorr

6/25/21 11:04am

The U had been working on AAU membership for some time and it was pretty

Scratch

6/25/21 12:05pm

There are exactly 3 P5 universities without R1 classification

krindorr

6/24/21 10:10pm

I would have guessed Louisville.

Conan

6/25/21 10:25am

RE: There are exactly 3 P5 universities without R1 classification

Monomachos

6/25/21 10:57am

And TCU is who got into the Big 12 in our place

6/25/21 11:46am

In fairness TCU was way better on the field at the time

krindorr

6/25/21 11:50am

The Carnegie Classification of Institutions of Higher Learning, which gave

Monomachos

6/25/21 11:43am

<< Deleted >>

cvd6262

6/24/21 2:07pm

Given that athletics and research have little to do with each other it is rather

Monomachos

6/24/21 2:52pm

To me, that is the main point. Conference affiliations are about competing in Athletics. That's it really.

6/24/21 2:57pm

BYU is a Research institution. In fact, the irony of it all is that....

LEDSFW

6/24/21 3:23pm

BYU has a dental school? Since when?

KingDave

6/24/21 5:49pm

I thought BYU did, maybe at Idaho / Hawaii. Doesn't matter, BYU IS a research...

LEDSFW

6/24/21 7:33pm

…

kos

6/25/21 8:18am

Really? BYU has one of the best engineering programs in the country? I know you

kos

6/24/21 6:22pm

Business Insider magazine rated BYU a top 50 nationwide engineering school.

Mitty

6/24/21 6:36pm

There's a difference between undergrad and graduate programs

MetaLearner

6/24/21 10:43pm

So you’re hanging your hat on…Business Insider’s Engineering rankings? Their

kos

6/25/21 8:16am

I have hired ME's, EE's, CS's, and MET's from BYU, MIT, UVU, etc.

DrYfire

6/24/21 7:10pm

There actually is a wide gap in terms of research.

MetaLearner

6/24/21 10:37pm

BYU is not an R1. And they don’t aspire to be.

zsmooth

6/25/21 9:36am

RE: BYU is a Research institution. In fact, the irony of it all is that....

Ute32

6/25/21 10:00am

BYU does not have a veterinary program.

Saguaro

6/25/21 4:32pm

Just because BYU does research, it does not make it a "Research Institution".

BYUpsychom

6/25/21 5:19pm

BYU will not accept an invite from pac 12 because of religion..they want to take

coot20

6/24/21 3:46pm

RE: BYU will not accept an invite from pac 12 because of religion..they want to

jimmything

6/24/21 10:48pm

BYU will not be given an invite from the PAC 12 because of religious bigotry.

6/25/21 2:32am

Yep and you didn't want that recruit anyway.....

Z-Ute

6/25/21 9:01am

People in Academia please explain why research matters when forming athletic

Forzaitalia

6/24/21 3:48pm

Because academia is the last bastion of the caste system in the U.S. If you want

IUCougar

6/24/21 4:22pm

Good explanation. Still not very logical

Dr T-bone

6/24/21 5:29pm

But the question remains: Why does academic research matter at all for sports?

Reasonable1

6/24/21 9:20pm

You aren't missing anything except the club people want to belong to. It really

IUCougar

6/24/21 11:17pm

It’s plain old elitism. When I was a grad student at Harvard I was blown away at

BlooCoog

6/24/21 9:31pm

No matter the setting, Harvardites drop HU into the conversation w/in 15 mins

Forzaitalia

6/25/21 11:21am

Agreed 100%. It’s known as the H-bomb. It’s nauseating. I became allergic to it.

BlooCoog

6/25/21 4:21pm

I'll add that different conferences value this differently

krindorr

6/24/21 10:09pm

This is true. SEC and Big 12 don't care as much about academic reputation.

MetaLearner

6/24/21 10:32pm

I agree with this. Having worked at an ACC school, it is funny how they tried to

IUCougar

6/24/21 11:23pm

RE: Because academia is the last bastion of the caste system in the U.S. If you

icecougar

6/25/21 10:56am

Pretty sure than any conference would jump at bringing in a Bama or an Auburn

Monomachos

6/24/21 4:47pm

If research was the clear deciding factor, Tulane and Rice would be in the SEC

IUCougar

6/24/21 4:52pm

They are still R1 research institutions

zsmooth

6/25/21 9:38am

With very pedestrian academic reputations. Why does anyone believe

Monomachos

6/25/21 10:11am

That's a terrible analogy; it's more that they look at different things

krindorr

6/25/21 10:21am

Think of "R-1" being a car. Both Smart Cars and S-Class are cars. They can claim

Monomachos

6/25/21 10:52am

Totally agree with you there.

zsmooth

6/25/21 2:00pm

That's fair; still don't love the analogy, but I agree with the underlying point

krindorr

6/25/21 2:16pm

R-1s are Mercedes; R-2 is another car, you can choose.

Monomachos

6/25/21 3:09pm

RE: People in Academia please explain why research matters when forming athletic

Ute32

6/25/21 10:35am

Meh. Being in the same athletic conference does not mean they attract more

Monomachos

6/25/21 10:56am

Except you're wrong. Collaboration with the other P12 schools has increased

Scratch

6/25/21 12:09pm

Utah gets more research funding because it's in the PAC-12? Doubtful.

Monomachos

6/25/21 3:06pm

Utah joined the P12 in late 2011. Ever since 2013, the total amount of research

Scratch

6/25/21 3:22pm

RE: Utah gets more research funding because it's in the PAC-12? Doubtful.

Ute32

6/25/21 11:58pm

I think you have it backwards, research is the primary selection criterion for..

icecougar

6/25/21 11:06am

Gotta love how the call it research "expenditures" when it really is...

CougarThug

6/24/21 11:43pm

I think only like 3 P5 schools are not R1 research schools.

Blue Coat

6/25/21 2:20am

I think a bigger part of it is BYU wants to stay focused on undergraduates

MetaLearner

6/25/21 8:23am

Very true; not sure why grad research matters, but evidence shows it does

krindorr

6/25/21 9:12am

RE: Which school(s) in Pac12 are not research institutions like BYU?

Waddamy

6/25/21 1:46pm

I never knew how little BYU grads know about academic research

Punk Philosopher

6/25/21 6:07pm

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